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Ok, so there are no scientific proofs for the existence of god. But still, how certain are you that god does not exist? What if he does? You can't proove he doesn't, so what if you're wrong and the god does exist? - these are the common questions believers sometimes ask me.
So what? Why should I care at all?
It's obvious to any careful observer this is one god forsaken planet. Beasts preying on each other, humans killing fellow humans, volcanos erupting, hurricanes and earthquakes taking innocent lives...and they call this world wonderful.))) It stays wonderful for some right until they loose their children or their soulmate. Certainly religious people always find an explanation for things like that, or when it gets too tough, they can always say 'finite can't comprehend the infinite'.
But I'm not like that (any more). As I may have mentioned in other posts, I've been a devout Christian long time ago, since I was around 8 till when I was 12. After that, I still kept my faith in god for a number of years.
That last argument about being unable to comprehend god's plan was exactly what was keeping my faith alive when I was having great doubts. Got tired telling this to myself. So I can't get it, huh? Than you shouldn't have given me a reason if you didn't want me using it. But since I have one, I'm not going to spend my life fighting it and telling it to shut up and believe the nonsenses.
Frankly, even if it turned out Christian god (Jewish, Muslim - all pretty much similar) existed, I wouldn't be able to worship him. Only if he took my brains out and made me a zombie. Then praising a wicked murderous guy would not have been a problem.
And if there is some deity that does not care - he or she (hey, no sexism here, right?) does not care what I believe as well. No worshipping even expected. Nothing is expected when one does not care about you. So hey, why not just get on with our lives. I don't give a damn about an indifferent god either.
What I am sure of is that had there been a god that truly cared for us mortals, world history would have been a book appropriate for all audiences and age groups.
And no, I don't believe inventing and using all sorts of torture devices on people has been a part of god's plan, I don't believe Holocaust happenned for a reason, I don't think people eating their own children during famines was for a manifistation of god's mysterious way of 'loving us'. My psychological defense mechanisms have failed here, I can no longer keep justifying atrocities like that. Many people I know have more sympathy for roaches, than the supposed Christian god has for his children.
In a movie called 'God on Trial' there is a good piece of monologue that describes the problem.
"There's a wasp. It is called ichneumonidae. It lays its eggs inside caterpillars. The eggs hatch and then the larvae of the wasp eat the caterpillar from the inside. They eat their way out of it. What kind of god would design a thing like that?"
Ok, lets assume we humans are the sinners and responsible for all injustices and pain that we're bringing on ourselves. Adam and Eve blew it. But what was the animals' fault? What are they sufferring for? Why couldn't the perfect deity design a world in a more humane (at least) manner? If I was all-powerful I would have created a world where no one would be a food for anyone else. There would be food that couldn't feel pain, and there would be living beings that would eat it. Wouldn't that be a more intelligent of a design?..
Whether god exists or not - does not really matter under the circumstances. The existence of god who is either unable or unwilling to ease the pain and sufferrings of his creations is irrelevant. If he is too lazy and indifferent - we're on our own, and if he is as wicked as to damn billions of people forever for the doings of their short lives - we're doomed anyway, I mean, can you really expect mercy from a guy capable of such thing? I wouldn't.
I don't need any proofs to not believe in something I've never seen. I need them to believe in something. And there are no good ones.
More posts from this category: Ukrainian orthodox priests luxurious faithWord of god?
Irina |
19-03-2012
Im writing about the only concept of god that seems to matter for our eartly life. If one describes god as energy or smth like that theres nothing more to talk about. The existence of some kind of cosmic energy beyond our understanding does not change a thing about the way we live our lives on Earth. So...believe in it or not, who cares anyway. Atheist don't. Christians don't. Because then theres no reward and punishment system, nothing to pray and worry about. Nothing to say except 'if it eists we don't have a clue about its nature'. End of discussion then. So I concentrate on a popular view of god. I myself dont believe in any. I see no point in defining anything we already know as god. Why calling another name something we already have a name for? When they say god is love. Should we call love god then? Why, if we already agreed to call love - 'love'. And in any case, defining god thru abstract concepts doesnt lead us anywhere. If god is so mysterious that were too stupid to grasp it, we should just stop talking about it and especially claiming that something we can not even clearly define - exists.
We're animals too. And our record of cooperation is not too impressive. And our cooperation isnt rooted in love. People had to unite and live in communes to survive, to fight a common enemy - wild beasts. No need to look for more beautiful motives where primitive drives are present. And btw, animals cooperate as well. There is reciprocity in members of the same species. People's search for god is easily explained as similar to when children want to find their parents. We see people have parents, so we wonder who created the first parents on earth. So we create a superparent - god. We're scared bunch of animals, week and mortal, scatterred around a hostile environment (we may not see it like that today, in civillized world, but in wilderness humans face the true brutality of this world). So we seek the explanation of why we're here, we seek imaginary protection and immortality. |
John
|
21-03-2012
Wow, awesome response Irina. I was really interested to see how you'd respond to that one and I wasn't disappointed.
You bring up excellent alternate points. I have to say I better see where you are coming from and I almost completely agree with your insight. I am actually undecided on a concept of God, or wanting further education to define its origin.. |
Irina |
21-03-2012
I am actually undecided on a concept of God That's understandable. Noone can say for sure 'god doesnt exist'. (or ghosts, or chupakabras, or flying spaghetti monster :)) Thats not the kind of certainty I have. All I've decided is that it doesn't matter. We are what we are, this planet is what it is. Now whether something or someone had a role in creating it or it formed this way on its own - theoretically interesting, but practically doesn't change much with regards to how unintelligent its design is. I don't need to know who created the picture to tell whether its beautiful or ugly. This place is awfully flawed, no matter who or what the author is (if there is one). |
John
|
22-03-2012
It must be a certain delusion that makes things palatable..
Is it the delusion that resulted in the formation of the human ego? I was thinking about this today.. if people truly were aware of the raw truth of everything, our insignificance and meaninglessness in the universe, they probably would be paralysed. There is something in the brain, at least when I honestly reflect on my own, that needs to think something is possible, that it is important, that we have control in order to succeed doing it. A delusion about our power and significance. The creation of the idea of God plays into this.. creating this human-centric delusion in the aims of the universe to assuage our fears and give us a feeling of importance and power. Definitely seems tied to the frail human ego. |
Irina |
22-03-2012
Sure thats what the idea of god supports today - our ego, among other things. "I can't seize to exist forever, I'm too important!" But I'm not sure how much of an ego primitive ancestors had... Perhaps enough to be craving immortality as well. The two factors: ego needs and the fear of death (and life itself, because horrid things happen to people while theyre alive) may be intertwined in this business of gods creation. if people truly were aware of the raw truth of everything, our insignificance and meaninglessness in the universe, they probably would be paralysed. Well....not necessarily. We're good at inventing our own meanings. Godless communism here in SU had manufactured and propagandized the glory of work and sacrifice for the sake of a better future, for the sake of communism building. Every little worker had their share of glory and meaning. Looks like deep inside we're all aware of the ultimate meaninglessness of it all, but we suppress it into the unconscious, and consciously we are clinging to every more or less convincing meaning that is offerred to us. So...we would be paralysed had we allowed ourselves to accept the truth and let it sink, but our psychological immunte system acts brilliantly to create a new story for us. |
John
|
23-03-2012
Ok, that's a good example. How communistic propaganda.. or the state.. took the place of god to provide meaning for life. It happens in the US right now in different ways.
It's interesting,, this focus on the future always.. some heroic action for the kids, better future.. all ways of transferring the lingering deep fear of the real truth. I'm convinced that religion became so successful because people became much more successful at life being under the God delusion. It's the perfect pharmaceutical for the condition of life; to numb one from constantly feeling the reality of life. If, like you say at the end, our psychological immune system will always create a delusion of some order to keep us motivated and feeling safe in life.. is that what consciousness needs in its frailty? It's depressing to think that our existence requires some form of functional delusion in order to be happy and successful. I thought of it also as focusing on what is good, or creating through intention. Your thoughts? |
Irina |
23-03-2012
to keep us motivated and feeling safe in life.. is that what consciousness needs in its frailty? The feeling of safety is viewed as one of the basic human needs in psychology. It's depressing to think that our existence requires some form of functional delusion in order to be happy and successful. "No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities." (Christian Nevell Bovee) What else is there to add? Reality is frightening and depressing, but our whole organism is built with one main aim - to survive. Both our physical body and our psyche. "I thought of it also as focusing on what is good" Yeah. Focus on the positive aspects. Think positively. Nice wording. Which practically means: 'Distort the reality', 'Live a lie'. Sure, sometimes a bit of willful concentration on the positive is justified. For instance, you love your spouse but she put on a few pounds, but you try to pay more attention to something else that you love about her because noone is perfect etc etc. But when they say that you only need to focus on the positive to love this world, I get a different image in my mind. Its like a woman staying with a man who is molesting her kids because she is concentrating on his positive traits of charcter. There are things so horrific in this world that they should never be deemed outweighed by any positive thinking. But... who wants to hear that? Life's great, put on your happy hats, sing along and dance like nothing ever happens. |
John
|
24-03-2012
OK, now we are getting to something interesting.. because I don't know the answer to this or how I feel.
This caught my attention: "Yeah. Focus on the positive aspects. Think positively. Nice wording. Which practically means: 'Distort the reality', 'Live a lie'." Two sides of my brain say different things. And neither is a dishonest impulse. I've had the experience of being brutally honest to the reality around me. It was so depressing, I lived near death for a long time. I've also had the experience of being in the zone with music or work/study and completely in the flow of life, where I was honest to the reality and saw the whole picture, and not delusional. Instead, my experience was seeing all this and choosing to focus on what I could do, to create. Seeing the capability of human beings on top of all the mess, and choosing to devote my energy to it. I would call it a focused intention while perceiving the whole picture. The engine of consciousness. The reason why I say this, is because this is a very interesting and subtle concept. What we perceive is not necessarily reality. What the news broadcasts is highly negative and I believe serves private interest to keep people negative and afraid, hence more enslaved to the system. What reality is real, that we perceive, is limited to our experience, which is shaped by our internal psychology and intention. I'm not saying the things you mentioned are not real. I am simply wondering here.. Aren't we engines of consciousness? The structure of our bodies and minds would support this. And if so, can't we create despite the other dark realities, without delusion? |
Irina |
24-03-2012
I've had the experience of being brutally honest to the reality around me. It was so depressing, I lived near death for a long time. And I'm not saying thats how people should live for the sake of truth. The conclusion, IMO, should be: 'I've seen how life is without delusions, and I'm not going to pass it on. Now back to my defense mechanisms and fancy rose colored glasses.' Then you concentrate on the positive, knowing that you're doing it to survive and feel good, but that this distorted vision isn't real. What the news broadcasts is highly negative and I believe serves private interest to keep people negative and afraid News should be talking about the negative events, about something that needs fixing. At least news! Look at all the other programs: dance, eat, follow celebrities' lives, watch tv shows. All - entertainment, aimed at helping people forget the troubles of life. I dont think anyone needs to be 'enslaving' people, they've never been free, their thinking has never been independent, the mass is a flock. I think the question 'but do we really know what reality is?' is predominately raised in discussions in response to the pessimistic evaluation of it. I don't think I've ever heard this point being made to counter the arguments of the optimists: "I think life is such a miracle and the good stuff always outweights the negative. Look at love, creativity, inspiration!" - "Yeah, you say life is great but isn't it just a product of your consciousness, how can we be sure its really as good as you're describing it?" No, for some reason it always pops up when the tough reality is mentioned. Then our mind immediately comes up with 'but maybe it isn't so real'. Like when people say to themselves when they're in trouble 'I don't believe this is happening'. Why do we tend to disbelieve that anything horrible can ever happen to us? Because we live on the assumption that life is friendly, and the bad stuff always happens to other people, like to characters in a movie, life wouldn't hurt us, we're real! |
John
|
27-03-2012
Wait.. you're crashing my faith in the flying spaghetti monster.. my reality is coming apart!
I had a thought today.. there is an interesting circuit in human beings. Have you heard about the propensity for truth experiments in human beings? It has been recorded in controlled experiments, that among the most successful people are those who are least honest! One group is professional athletes. It was stated, when asked about this, that if the athletes didn't presume that they were the fastest/best even before the fight had begun.. then they had lost the battle of the mind already. In short.. success was highly influenced by 'delusional' belief.. optimistic belief. This is what I'm talking about as us - as machines of consciousness. I think it is the machine itself that necessitates the bending of reality at first to enable the possibility of actually influencing that reality. Negative bending is sure to create failure from the get-go. In other words, there is a thin line between lying, complete delusion and success. If you fail, you are a deluded liar. If you succeed, you are lauded as a man who makes great things happen. I would argue, all great things that happen, begin with a 'lie' or delusion. "I don't think I've ever heard this point being made to counter the arguments of the optimists." Yes, because our continued existence depends on our survival which is threatened by pessimism. When faced with the large truth, taking the negative side and focusing on it, only decreases chances for survival.. no matter how true it is. This has made me continually angry to realize that life is technically built on lies to sustain itself. |
Irina |
28-03-2012
Wait.. you're crashing my faith in the flying spaghetti monster Don't you doubt FSM's existence, remember: he boiled for your sins! among the most successful people are those who are least honest! Hey, I knew that back in school. Those who could lie with a straight face were doing better having to make less efforts. if the athletes didn't presume that they were the fastest/best even before the fight had begun.. then they had lost the battle of the mind already Perhaps that's true. Im only thinking how did they establish the fact that only those who were overly optimistic won. Because most can feel fastest/best before the start, and if you interview them afterwards - only the winners will say 'yeah, i always knew i was the best'. But also, theres optimism bias. And the effects of it aren't always pretty. This has made me continually angry to realize that life is technically built on lies to sustain itself. Yeah, but at some point its good to add some irony/sarcasm to it and just treat the fact like a bad joke. Of universal proportions, hehehe))) |
John
|
29-03-2012
Every night I sacrifice a pot of noodles for my sins.
Here is the radio broadcast on human deception, containing information on the experiment (about 47:30): http://www.radiolab.org/2008/mar/10/ This includes discussion of the experiment on professional swimmers (Dr. Joanna Starek). The athletes were given a questionnaire at the beginning of the season, which asked a series of probing questions which had been shown before, experimentally, to be incredibly accurate at pinpointing self-deception. These questions only required 'yes' or 'no' answers and essentially contained controversial subjects that all people are trained by society to answer 'no' to, even though it is demonstrated that a majority of human beings experience these as true. Then the swimmers competed as usual to qualify by the end of the season. The researchers simply correlated data from the questionnaire to those who qualified and those who didn't. Those who qualified, overwhelmingly, answered 'no' to all these questions. In other words. They were liars. I think this same brain circuitry concerns our need for a God delusion.. and why people who believe in God often are happier and more worry free than those who don't. I feel like we are these weak, fallible organisms in a harsh world, unable to conceive of why we are here. Deception and self-deception (about God, etc.) helps us cope with reality and have a more satisfying, successful life. The evolving mind's protection against its own probing nature. Like you said above, in psychotherapy, it is known that safety is the primary need of the organism. Maybe all these mechanisms are ways to create a feeling of safety, when in fact it does not exist. |
John
|
29-03-2012
The end of the broadcast I thought was said so well:
"That questionnaire served a couple of purposes. One of the things it taught us, was that people who are happiest are the ones who are lying to themselves. The people who are the most realistic, who actually see the world exactly as it is, tend to be slightly more depressed than others. Time and time again, researchers have found that depressed people lie less! They see all the pain in the world, how horrible people are with each other, and they tell you everything about themselves: what their weaknesses are, what terrible things they have done to other people.. and the problem is.. they're right. And so, maybe the way we help people is to help them be wrong. It might just be that hiding ideas that we know to be true, that hiding those ideas from ourselves, is what we need to get by. We're so vulnerable to being hurt, that we're given the capacity to distort, as a gift." |
Irina |
15-04-2012
And so, maybe the way we help people is to help them be wrong. Sure, I'd love to agree with that, but it has a downside I just can't accept. You help people live in their illusions and they keep having children. That's what got me here. If my parents were living looking reality in the face, they wouldn't have decided to have kids. How long should we tolerate this madness? Endlessly? If one generation of people was brave enough to acknowledge the futility and brutality of life, hundreds of others would have been spared already. If we continue supporting a lie, more people will suffer in the future. And then those people who you support in their illusions will tell you 'go kill yourself if you're not glad to be alive, stop whining!'. Is this what you want to preserve? |
Luca
|
01-01-2014
I believe that one of the main reason people create Gods and religions is that they don't know how to answer to these questions:
Why were we born? Why are we here? Why we die? Why we exist? They are afraid that maybe humans have no meaning, maybe they are just a toy that was created by a supreme being, a God, or some Aliens...which in the end is the same. So they create Gods but if you think about it is not God that created humans like him/her, but humans created Gods like them...selfish, arrogant, snob, cruel. Personally I was raised Christian but already around 10 years old I had many doubts, I didn't even want to do the first communion. So I don't believe in any Gods now. Why I should cheat myself and pretend to believe in something. I only think that maybe I will know some more about the real meaning of human existence when I die. And for that I am not afraid to die. I am just curious to know if I'll have some answers after I die. For now I live without certainties. If you have doubts it is ok, maybe it is even better instead of having certainties. |
Irina |
01-01-2014
I agree. It's a scary world, religions attempt to mitigate that horror. I'm afraid al answers are in already. We are a by-product of this evolution machine just like dinosaurs were. I think when you die - you die, there is no reason to suggest you are anything but a brain and once it's dead there's no one to realize r find out anything any more. On a positive note, no one to be tormented by the lack of answers either )) |
I like contrasting the thought patterns of scholars like Richard Dawkins against those of CS Lewis.
Both, well thought out.
I wonder if faith in God and rationality aren't simply processes eminent from two different brain systems.
I notice in here you humanize the idea of God.. think about him/her through rational extension. This is, well, humanly logical.
I think the idea of God is irrational. Outside the reasoning ability of the mind.
While I completely disagree with the manipulative disgrace of the Christian or Islam (name popular religion here) doctrine defining God (also humanizing his thought patterns and motives), I also see the feeling of Einstein, supremely rational, who felt there must be a God.
However, his sense of God, must have been the deep sense of abiding energetic interconnectivity. The wisdom of the atoms and depth of physics that tie space together. That clockwork which is beyond the human scope to grasp at once.
The fact that quantum physics shows up in possible solutions to the Riemann hypothesis; or energy being realized as the fabric of mass itself, in E=mc^2. Symmetries in equations of gravitation.
That clockwork could be defined as God, with no deference to humans. No care to them having a 'good' life. This, after all, is a serendipitous uprising that we developed these conscious characteristics. Who's to say, the sense of God is conscious in the first place?
I also see the spiritual idea of love connecting us. The faith in this love, despite the terrors and evils of nature. I see love or 'God' in this case as the evolutionary potential of our collective ability to see it and have faith in this working for the better, gradually.
Animals cannot cooperate based on this love, and so they hunt and tear each other apart. This is why I point to evolutionary ability.
So maybe, this faith in God, is a faith in our evolutionary ability to love, and that things will continue to work out if we find better ways of living through this sense of love.
However, history cannot say that collectively, we have done that.
I'm also not saying that this love, or God, makes us better - or necessitates the future being any better. I simply see it as the outcropping of hope and trust in our broadening knowledge of the world. That we may trust others, if they hold this faith as a value. Faith in love, and in themselves.