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This is the question that turned me away not only from Christianity, but from the doctrine of Karma afterwards.
Religion says we are judged by the way we choose to exercise our free will. Humans were always free to choose between good and evil. So they say, isn't it nice of god to give us 'freedom' (to obey his laws or burn in hell forever)? Ok, that is still a choice, a free will, I suppose.
But it is important to establish when exactly this choice, this free will begins?
When did Adam and Eve's free will occur? I guess, after they were created and told so by god. He said, do whatever you please, just don't eat from one tree I put there for you to eat from (because I know you will eat from it, since I'm all knowing).
So anyway, they were first faced with the dilemma of choice after god has made a series of choices for them.
- he decided to create humans
- he decided to give them the ability to think and decide for themselves
- he chose to give them a set of rules and punish them whenever they make choices that he didn't like
One choice he never gave them is a choice not to play his stupid game.
God created living beings that never asked him to create them. And then, he decided he can play with their lives as he likes. For example, punish all mankind for the sin their ancestors committed (by eating an apple). All out of utter love...
The fair deal would have been god creating people (if he absolutely had to, I mean, because non-existence doesn't hurt), then explaining them the terms of service (if he absolutely has to have some rules, rewards and punishments game), giving his creations a time to think and then asking them: "So, do you guys want to play my game of "win the eternal life and escape damnation"? Do you realize I will be frying your sorry asses in hell forever if you fail to worship me the way I command? Do you accept the terms of agreement"? Something like that would do it. That would have been the true free will.
The free will described in holy books for us is a kind of will a laboratory mouse has when it is being experimented on: it is given cheese when it is pressing the right button, and being electricuted when pressing the left. But it never had the choice of not getting in the box.
More posts from this category: Prayer is useless. Modern medicine is the only miracleBible as a source of morality
Gary
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22-02-2011
its not free will thats the problem...religion
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26-02-2011
The ultimate problem with free will is...........IT'S FREE.
hihihih:) |
ExpatChris
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29-12-2011
There are spiritualists that believe we chose this before we were born.
It probably causes more questions than it answers though. It would imply that we chose some kind of existential amnesia regarding this decision. I'm not sure if I find that totally absurd based on the experiential. In order to fully experience something, one may need to believe in the reality of it. Tough questions are one, that those who believe this, must have figured it out, thus negating the amnesia and it's effect. They appear to see themselves as Bodhisattvas or something. Two, what about those that never figure it out, or seem to not enjoy it or grow from it? I guess there are those that pay good money for BDSM, but that's a weak rationale at best. Anyway, here's a link with this ideology, not saying I buy it. I don't buy anything yet objectively, but it is curious to me. I do lean to believing in something regarding the experiential, as you know, but that means to me, to find my own way, and that my experience can only be figured out by me in it's own context. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research01.html |
Irina |
29-12-2011
I do lean to believing in something regarding the experiential, as you know, but that means to me, to find my own way, and that my experience can only be figured out by me in it's own context. And Ive just totally abandoned the idea of trying to explain what exactly is going on and where it all started and why (if why is even a permissible question here, maybe there was no reason at all). So many theories trying to address these questions, all claiming they've got the truth. Sticking to any of them requires a leap of faith which means Im not finding the truth, but choosing to believe something is true. As long as I know that its all bout making a choice, I may just choose to admit that I simply don't know and also have good reasons to suspect I never will. People much smarter than I am have been wrecking their heads with these questions for ages, why should I be convinced Ill get it right? Good point about the contradiction between the necessity to forget if one later remembers. From the link you provided: People who choose to be born into a life of extreme suffering through handicaps, have decided to attain greater soul growth in a single lifetime than most people Reminds me of Karma doctrine I once believed. I must admit, its great having such views. But today such attempts at explaining suffering in the world to me look like a manifistation of the just world hypothetis Noone wants to live in the malevolent Universe. |
John
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18-03-2012
Great post..
I see the Genesis story as a creation of man; an analogy of our rise. I can't believe the story is taken literally at all. I see it as describing the state of early evolutionary man/woman, in a lush natural earth where man trusted nature and his life to the natural process. Then I see the choice of the apple as representative of the divisive cortex in the mind evolving and finding gnosis, or knowledge, and starting to control nature and ceasing to trust what was. I see this as a concise story for what elders must have observed over generations of change. The hell is created when people ceased to trust and began to control and fight. Analogy through stories is the most common form of relaying deep material through text. Especially in antiquity. |
Irina |
19-03-2012
Analogy through stories is the most common form of relaying deep material through text. Methaphor. Id say its a great way to make sure your readers will come up with dozens of different interpretations. Thats why we avoid poetic language when writing the laws. |
John
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21-03-2012
Yeah, I'd really like to learn more about this.. the origins of the Bible and related text.
We really should be taught exactly where it came from! I heard more dead sea scrolls were found that might tie more of the contexts together. |
Zeener
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10-08-2012
Jajajajaja this is the best piece i've ever read on the topic of free will!!!
Thank you so much, Irina, for this! Absolutely outraging! Honestly, I can't stop laughing... my God!!! (go to Hell, by the way, my God...) Best wishes for you, and everybody! |
Zeener
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10-08-2012
Btw (by the way),
just let me tell you something I've learnt in my life, NO-ONE, NOTHING (no religion, least of all), NEVER... will EVER justify the unspeakable suffering in this world (past, present, future). No question, and no doubt about that... Dot. But, IF there is an afterlife (and there are many hints there could be... according, at least, to my life-long research into this topic - too long to relate here-), then let's be over-extremely generous and let them have the opportunity to explain... before rebelling and checking out from the whole trandenscental business... because I really cannot work out how I could possibly be convinced not to... I've long had your Woody Allen pic"e ("If there is a god, I hope he/she/it has a good excuse") among my favourite pics on Facebook... Nice good antinatalist fella that Woody... |
Irina |
11-08-2012
NO-ONE, NOTHING (no religion, least of all), NEVER... will EVER justify the unspeakable suffering in this world (past, present, future). Couldn't agree more. |
Zenner
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11-08-2012
Hi again! I've been reading some more posts in your blog (tremendous fun)... and obviously I didn't discover America for you in my previous entry...
But, somehow, I knew as much from the very beginning... (I knew you already knew)... yet it feels good to speak up your mind and be able to say such kind of "atrocities" to a knowledgeable audience from time to time... I just hope it all goes down fine and uneventfully with other kinds of audiences as well. Best of lucks! |
Irina |
11-08-2012
I really don't know what's so tremendously funny, especially in this post. But if you find smth funny thats great. Yep, people need to be able to speak their mind somewhere. Thats why I have this blog. You're free to submit comments)) |
Zenner
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12-08-2012
(sorry for monopolizing your comment section... I'll stop for a while after this one)
Brief attempt at explaining why I find your posts so funny (and, yes, especially this one, but others too): - first of all, I actually do laugh, I assure you, while reading them, no pretence here... (maybe not out loud, mostly innerly to myself...) - for mysterious reasons, I was born with/have developed (don't know which) an hyper-sensitive soft spot for metaphysical dark humour, I love it (pity it is soo rare..., but no wonder, what in a planet where you can get lynched/tortured for just the smallest hint of a joke about their (respective) God, holy bibles, holy ministers and believers, you name it...) - many of your posts (this one, for instance) tend to contain a pretty good dose of that kind of irreverent metaphysical satire... - ...apart from an (equally rare and hard-to-find) bright analysis of the real situation in each case There are surely more things that could fully explain why I go splitting my sides (laughing)every time I read something like this... but I won't take up any more of your time for now. Much obliged, for both reading my comments and providing such thoughtful and honest responses. See you any other day! |
Irina |
12-08-2012
ok i think i know what you talking about. no problem with monopolizing :) |