Non-human animals in captivity and in the wild
Seems like it's animals day today. Came across some pictures on Facebook and also some good quotes on the topic while reading more from Faina Ranevskaya
I became miserable when I was 6. Our maid took me to this menagerie that came to town. There was this slim fox with human eyes in the cage in a small room. Beside the cage was a small tub with two tiny dolphins in it. Two drunk noisy scruffs walked in and began poking the dolphin's eye with a stick. Blood splashed out of it…
I am 76 now. I've been tormented by this for the whole 70 years. (Faina Ranevskaya)
Well, it seems misery will be my company as well. Once in a while something again reminds me of how brutal animals have it (not that I ever really forget).
Another quote by Ranevskaya: "I can't eat meat. It used to walk, love, look..."
I also discovered 2 interesting websites not too long ago.
http://www.onlyonesolution.org
The first one is centered around exposing the myth of a perfect mother nature for what it is - a myth.
The second one is questioning the possibility of global veganism and arguing that even a vegan world wouldn't be a world free from suffering.
And I think they hit the nail on the head in a sense that as long as someone is fighting animal suffering, and seeing how hard it is to achieve even the slightest progress in the battle for animal liberation, one might as well invest their time and energy into fighting for something that really solves the problem once and for all instead of a half-measure.
They make a point that vegan activists didn't become so because they just didn't like peoples diets, but because they hated to see animals suffer. Well, if suffering is the problem why make a distinction between that caused by humans and that inflicted in the wild? If someone truly has a problem with suffering, they've got to address the root cause of the problem - life on this planet.
"A world without humans, as dreamy as it would be, won't be a sufferingless world and therefore it would be a partial solution.
Trillions of creatures would still suffer from rape, hunger, thirst, dehydration, infanticide, violent dominancy fights, constant fear of being hunted, diseases, torture, slavery and caducity.
In a humanless world, hyena cubs would still viscously fight each other, tearing slices of other cubs’ faces including ears and lips, to get more food.
In a humanless world wasps would still inject their eggs into a live caterpillar’s body to ensure that when their descendants hatch they will have breakfast (the wasp larva will eat the caterpillar from the inside out).
...
In a humanless world billions of insects would still get chemically liquefied before they are eaten by spiders. And snakes would still swallow whole animals and slowly digest them until red tailed hawk would hunt them, digging in with their talons into the snakes’ body until they give up fighting back and then start to cut pieces of their body and eat them. " http://www.onlyonesolution.org/faq/why_non_human_animals_too.html
It is horrible to realize the extent to which your comfortable life depends on the suffering of other animals. It's probably in most every product we use. Some products directly include animal body fluids, like perfumes (!!), some were tested on animals burning their eyes out while they were immobilized. Some scientific research required vivisections. And now I learn there are animal brothels in Germany. Sick.
More posts from this category: A boring romanceThe cost of having children: selfish reasons
 Irina |
04-06-2013
Sure, in nature creatures eat one another to survive and reproduce. That doesn't however mean that the suffering experienced by living beings in nature is any less intense because they are being tormented for different reasons. I'm not making an argument that we are in any was justified in exploiting other sentinent beings and adding more suffering because there is suffering anyway. I'm just pointing out there is suffering anyway. The problem is not just humans, it's the wiring of life on Earth itself. |
 John
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04-06-2013
Yes, this is the wiring of life on Earth itself, but this is the way we are. Pleasure cannot be perceived without pain. They are two sides of the same coin. Absence of suffering would be absence of pleasure. Contained therein is the meaning of life.
Not an argument for existence, just acceptance of what is. |
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04-06-2013
@Irina, yes but since we are supposed to be intelligent and at top of food chain, should we not use our supposed intelligence and change how we interact with nature and each other. The fact that we still cannot resolve issues by verbally sorting out but rather resort to war means we are not as intelligent as we think and just another animal occupying surface of this earth.
@John interesting concept that I'm trying to wrap my head around. For lack of better example, you mean I cannot enjoy good food without experiencing pain of fasting for 10 days at end or have nice messsage without having living shit beaten out of me beforehand? |
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Irina |
05-06-2013
In many ways we are not like any other animal, clearly. We're far from perfect but - sadly - we're the most intelligent species on this rock and that's how we got on top of the food chain - by using our brains. But sure, we are animals as well, we're primates. Though I didn't get where you were going with this. |
 John
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04-06-2013
No that's missing the point.. also confusing cruel and unusual with the normal.
You cannot enjoy good food without the absence of food; struggle of work to earn the food to be able to share in with others. Try gorging on food past the point of satisfying hunger and I guarantee you won't enjoy it anymore. The longer you struggle and are hungry, the better the food will taste. Try walking for miles through wilderness, surviving on berries and vegetation, only to come back and have a simple sandwich at a diner. I guarantee it will be the best thing you have ever tasted. Try living in the city, earning an average wage in a cheap apartment. Dissatisfied and angry with life, you finally scrap enough together to take a trip to the countryside, and discover how difficult even the simplest thing is out there. How few opportunities, how much higher the level of ignorance. You come back and I guarantee you won't overstimulate on the same habitual patterns that led to dissatisfaction. You will appreciate the luxuries and technologies that have allowed us to rise free of the food chain and threats of nature. You will be so insanely happy every time you walk into a corner supermarket and can just give a few coins for food that you want. If you are rich and spoiled, and avoid pain as much as those people use their money to do.. you will not appreciate that massage. It will feel ineffectual and dull. Maybe one day it will feel decent. But you work all day in the sun, lifting and pushing your body, only to afford the first massage of your life, you will be blown away by the pleasure, relaxation.. overwhelmed with gratitude. The cruel and unusual is exactly what our society has been aiming to eliminate. The entire point of human society is to make life based on reason, predictability. To eliminate people from the food chain, natural disasters, torture, barbaric practice, racism, etc. Do we still have those things? Yes. But this is exactly what our entire species has been working thousands of years to improve and reduce. Eating animals is necessary. You should do it with the most respect and efficiency possible. I really agree with the Native American treatment of this. Honoring the earth because she gave all sustenance and every animal was a brother. Some cultures are less shitty than others. More enlightened with more to offer. Ours is more intelligent, but a lot less wise. What gets me now is through all of our improvement of the quality of life, through technology, we have turned into machines, honoring endless production instead of the life process. We have lost perspective. Our ugliness, greed, cruelties, undisciplined nature, hubris, laziness and ignorance all comes from the arrogance that the overproduction and overfocus on technology has afforded. We are an adolescent not taking responsibility for what we are doing. Addicted and not aware. |
 John
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04-06-2013
I was reading about this animal testing of perfumes and vivisections, etc. at the end of your article Irina. So sad and gross that these things are being done, especially when focused towards useless mass consumer goods.
No life should be put on the line unless for a gravely important purpose. However, it's important to note that until very recently in the history of life on earth, we have been subject to the terrors of other animals. They don't have the understanding and consciousness that we do. They attack viciously and without limit. We have been lucky to rise above this terror in the last |
 John
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04-06-2013
Not sure why the comment got cut short..
We have been lucky to rise above this terror in the last |
 John
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04-06-2013
WTF? I can't put symbols in my typing? I had a 'less than' and percent sign in this line before it got cut off.
We have been lucky to rise above this terror in the last 1% of all history. Now we look at animals like some poor victims of our savagery. Well they are at times, and we are foolish and insensitive about our power and technology. We need more wisdom, but I think you need to look at the full picture of our survival on this planet to put our recent actions in perspective. |
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Irina |
05-06-2013
I always have a full picture in mind, that doesn't change anything for me. The more awareness and intelligence one has the more responsibility he bears, so while savage animals can not be held responsible for their actions people who can distinguish right from wrong can. Unless, of course, we start talking determinism in which case we'll probably end up saying nobody is responsible for anything, but then I'll just continue complaining because I was predetermined to do so. Sorry about the comment thing, I'll look into it when I get the chance. |
 John
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05-06-2013
No problem about comments Irina. Just realized I put a 'less than' symbol and that is the opener for a tag. Must be HTML enabled here. I guess you want it to enable hyperlinks in the comments?
I agree with you that since we have the intellect, we have the responsibility, and it is grossly abused. I wonder if this means the average IQ is not ready yet? I see you as a very intelligent person with far above average insight. Dumb people are seldom unhappy. They don't think deeply enough to see the cracks. How does one see them and still genuinely remain happy? I don't personally want to bring children into this world, but I think it is so important for those that do have insight to remain healthy for the sake of humanity. |
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Irina |
05-06-2013
Yeah, I've installed an add-on that allows some html. I wonder if this means the average IQ is not ready yet? I think the problem is our intellect has evolved to serve our selfish needs, it takes a lot of effort to train ourselves to be unbiased. In most cases selfish motivation will influence our judgement and we will fnd a justification for doing what we do. We're addicts. Addicts do have logic and reason but that doesn't do them much good when they want a fix. I see you as a very intelligent person with far above average insight. Thank you. You are on my list of intelligent commenters, too :D How does one see them and still genuinely remain happy? "To be stupid, selfish, and have good health are three requirements for happiness, though if stupidity is lacking, all is lost." (Gustave Flaubert) How does one remain happy in a slaughterhouse, seeing his fellow humans taken out day after day? I guess with the help of the coping mechanisms evolution has equipped us with: distraction, denial, minimization, justification, rationalization etc. I don't personally want to bring children into this world, but I think it is so important for those that do have insight to remain healthy for the sake of humanity. Arguably being religious is healthier and it gives a person more strengh to overcome life's hardships. But it also has its downsides. Unfortunately, it's like that with many things. This is a messy world with messy stuff going on... |
 John
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06-06-2013
Thought about what you said. I hit me all of a sudden what you are talking about with selfish addiction. "I think the problem is our intellect has evolved to serve our selfish needs, it takes a lot of effort to train ourselves to be unbiased. In most cases selfish motivation will influence our judgement and we will fnd a justification for doing what we do. We're addicts. Addicts do have logic and reason but that doesn't do them much good when they want a fix." This is precisely the thing that disgusts me about the majority of people. The selfish, shallow, spinal-cord-level reactionary thinking that pervades our society. The justification and bias. The pathetic brutishness that follows. The need for politics and bullshit to smooth over people's differences because they can't see beyond their own fingertips. I do think this is a low level IQ idiocy. And the planet is being filled with trash because of selfish people who don't discipline themselves more. Some is innocent: they are just too stupid to wrap their brain around it. But some is not. Through my work, I had to become unbiased. I worked hard at this particularly to be able to understand the truth of things separate from my own wants or needs. It was very hard, but something I felt deeply drawn to do. I've felt separated from the mass of people and less happy since. More aware of the truth of my own actions, less convinced of my specialness or greatness or of inherent meaning in life. It almost seemed like seeing unbiased truth was against the best intentions of my self. Seeing myself and the world squarely turned me more into an angry and disappointed Doug Stanhope. I have come to believe that we have evolved to filter and warp reality to boost our own hope and survival. Square thinking of reality can be very depressing. Most people can't do it because it simply makes them look at themselves in ways that would make them disgusted at their very existence; their very nature. This would take away the good feelings that propel them senselessly forward. I found it interesting though, that as you said this, at the end you sort of negated - as I was saying here: namely, that we are selfish motivated addicts, but the best way to be happy is to be religious or use denial, etc. coping mechanisms. But those are the very mechanisms that make us blind to our own selfish nature in the first place! So it seems you have run across what I have; that going somewhat with our own nature and letting those mechanisms take their course is in fact, necessary for happiness. So what conclusions does that lead us to? |
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Irina |
08-06-2013
I do think this is a low level IQ idiocy. Not without that for sure
I'm sure you're on the right track there, but did you examine how unbiased this belief of yours is "Eating animals is necessary"? Is it based on a thorough research or was at a selection bias where you choose to pay attention/remember/put more weight on statements supporting what you want to believe? Because I mean, excercise is necessary yet you don't see so many people anxious to do it regularly. And those who eat meat justifying it to be a necessity often consume much more than is recommended thereby harming their health and even after doctors tell them to cut down or completely abstain from eating a certain type of meat they can't do that. Why? Same reason alcoholics can't quit drinking. Pleasure. Addiction. I don't want to go into link dumping on each other because it would be sliding to another topic (health benefits or dangers of vegetarian/vegan diet). I just think our treatment of animals and our choosing to view them as our posessions is founded on our desire for it to be so. And it's but one of the examples of how motivation shapes our thinking. It almost seemed like seeing unbiased truth was against the best intentions of my self. It is. Are you surprised? You thought 'the truth will set you free'? Or there would be some enlightenment that would make you happier? Well, I did. I thought enlightenment was all about finding peace and harmony and well... this turns out to be false. Seeing myself and the world squarely turned me more into an angry and disappointed Doug Stanhope. Hey, Doug is funny! And for people like me also kind of therapeautic)))
Yep. I found it interesting though, that as you said this, at the end you sort of negated - as I was saying here: namely, that we are selfish motivated addicts, but the best way to be happy is to be religious or use denial, etc. coping mechanisms. But those are the very mechanisms that make us blind to our own selfish nature in the first place! I didn't negate anything. They are 2 different aims in an either/or equation, not 'and'. You either choose to be happy or seek the truth. Who said you can win in this game? Who said there must be a near perfect way to live in this world? Because there doesn't seem to be one. To be happy one needs to shield himself from the suffering around and use a set of distortion and coping mechanisms to justify taking what he wants from the environment, one needs to believe without evidence in meaning, purpose, god, etc, to embrace the optimism bias. To seek the truth one needs to think and question, even his own motives and conclusions, asserting nothing, testing everything. Where does it leave us? Trapped. |
But smart people add to that by making mistakes and being stubborn not wanting to admit they've been wrong.
In nature creatures are not used for experiments.
In nature creatures are not used for entertainment.
In nature creatures are not bred just to be killed and then worn as fur hats or coats.
In nature creatures are eliminated as competition to ensure survival of said species, eg. lions killing hyena.
In nature when a creature is killed there is zero waste. Can we say the same about how current system works, overproduction, unrealistic sell by dates, restaurants, exotic dishes.
Are we really the superior species that can make a difference or are we just a type of parasite consuming and killing, using and abusing indiscriminately for our own gratification?