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19-03-2012 Interesting ideas.I like contrasting the thought patterns of scholars like Richard Dawkins against those of CS Lewis. Both, well thought out. I wonder if faith in God and rationality aren't simply processes eminent from two different brain systems. I notice in here you humanize the idea of God.. think about him/her through rational extension. This is, well, humanly logical. I think the idea of God is irrational. Outside the reasoning ability of the mind. While I completely disagree with the manipulative disgrace of the Christian or Islam (name popular religion here) doctrine defining God (also humanizing his thought patterns and motives), I also see the feeling of Einstein, supremely rational, who felt there must be a God. However, his sense of God, must have been the deep sense of abiding energetic interconnectivity. The wisdom of the atoms and depth of physics that tie space together. That clockwork which is beyond the human scope to grasp at once. The fact that quantum physics shows up in possible solutions to the Riemann hypothesis; or energy being realized as the fabric of mass itself, in E=mc^2. Symmetries in equations of gravitation. That clockwork could be defined as God, with no deference to humans. No care to them having a 'good' life. This, after all, is a serendipitous uprising that we developed these conscious characteristics. Who's to say, the sense of God is conscious in the first place? I also see the spiritual idea of love connecting us. The faith in this love, despite the terrors and evils of nature. I see love or 'God' in this case as the evolutionary potential of our collective ability to see it and have faith in this working for the better, gradually. Animals cannot cooperate based on this love, and so they hunt and tear each other apart. This is why I point to evolutionary ability. So maybe, this faith in God, is a faith in our evolutionary ability to love, and that things will continue to work out if we find better ways of living through this sense of love. However, history cannot say that collectively, we have done that. I'm also not saying that this love, or God, makes us better - or necessitates the future being any better. I simply see it as the outcropping of hope and trust in our broadening knowledge of the world. That we may trust others, if they hold this faith as a value. Faith in love, and in themselves. |
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19-03-2012
Im writing about the only concept of god that seems to matter for our eartly life. If one describes god as energy or smth like that theres nothing more to talk about. The existence of some kind of cosmic energy beyond our understanding does not change a thing about the way we live our lives on Earth. So...believe in it or not, who cares anyway. Atheist don't. Christians don't. Because then theres no reward and punishment system, nothing to pray and worry about. Nothing to say except 'if it eists we don't have a clue about its nature'. End of discussion then. So I concentrate on a popular view of god. I myself dont believe in any. I see no point in defining anything we already know as god. Why calling another name something we already have a name for? When they say god is love. Should we call love god then? Why, if we already agreed to call love - 'love'. And in any case, defining god thru abstract concepts doesnt lead us anywhere. If god is so mysterious that were too stupid to grasp it, we should just stop talking about it and especially claiming that something we can not even clearly define - exists.
We're animals too. And our record of cooperation is not too impressive. And our cooperation isnt rooted in love. People had to unite and live in communes to survive, to fight a common enemy - wild beasts. No need to look for more beautiful motives where primitive drives are present. And btw, animals cooperate as well. There is reciprocity in members of the same species. People's search for god is easily explained as similar to when children want to find their parents. We see people have parents, so we wonder who created the first parents on earth. So we create a superparent - god. We're scared bunch of animals, week and mortal, scatterred around a hostile environment (we may not see it like that today, in civillized world, but in wilderness humans face the true brutality of this world). So we seek the explanation of why we're here, we seek imaginary protection and immortality. |
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21-03-2012 Wow, awesome response Irina. I was really interested to see how you'd respond to that one and I wasn't disappointed.You bring up excellent alternate points. I have to say I better see where you are coming from and I almost completely agree with your insight. I am actually undecided on a concept of God, or wanting further education to define its origin.. |
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21-03-2012
I am actually undecided on a concept of God That's understandable. Noone can say for sure 'god doesnt exist'. (or ghosts, or chupakabras, or flying spaghetti monster :)) Thats not the kind of certainty I have. All I've decided is that it doesn't matter. We are what we are, this planet is what it is. Now whether something or someone had a role in creating it or it formed this way on its own - theoretically interesting, but practically doesn't change much with regards to how unintelligent its design is. I don't need to know who created the picture to tell whether its beautiful or ugly. This place is awfully flawed, no matter who or what the author is (if there is one). |
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22-03-2012 It must be a certain delusion that makes things palatable..Is it the delusion that resulted in the formation of the human ego? I was thinking about this today.. if people truly were aware of the raw truth of everything, our insignificance and meaninglessness in the universe, they probably would be paralysed. There is something in the brain, at least when I honestly reflect on my own, that needs to think something is possible, that it is important, that we have control in order to succeed doing it. A delusion about our power and significance. The creation of the idea of God plays into this.. creating this human-centric delusion in the aims of the universe to assuage our fears and give us a feeling of importance and power. Definitely seems tied to the frail human ego. |
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22-03-2012
Sure thats what the idea of god supports today - our ego, among other things. "I can't seize to exist forever, I'm too important!" But I'm not sure how much of an ego primitive ancestors had... Perhaps enough to be craving immortality as well. The two factors: ego needs and the fear of death (and life itself, because horrid things happen to people while theyre alive) may be intertwined in this business of gods creation. if people truly were aware of the raw truth of everything, our insignificance and meaninglessness in the universe, they probably would be paralysed. Well....not necessarily. We're good at inventing our own meanings. Godless communism here in SU had manufactured and propagandized the glory of work and sacrifice for the sake of a better future, for the sake of communism building. Every little worker had their share of glory and meaning. Looks like deep inside we're all aware of the ultimate meaninglessness of it all, but we suppress it into the unconscious, and consciously we are clinging to every more or less convincing meaning that is offerred to us. So...we would be paralysed had we allowed ourselves to accept the truth and let it sink, but our psychological immunte system acts brilliantly to create a new story for us. |
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23-03-2012 Ok, that's a good example. How communistic propaganda.. or the state.. took the place of god to provide meaning for life. It happens in the US right now in different ways.It's interesting,, this focus on the future always.. some heroic action for the kids, better future.. all ways of transferring the lingering deep fear of the real truth. I'm convinced that religion became so successful because people became much more successful at life being under the God delusion. It's the perfect pharmaceutical for the condition of life; to numb one from constantly feeling the reality of life. If, like you say at the end, our psychological immune system will always create a delusion of some order to keep us motivated and feeling safe in life.. is that what consciousness needs in its frailty? It's depressing to think that our existence requires some form of functional delusion in order to be happy and successful. I thought of it also as focusing on what is good, or creating through intention. Your thoughts? |
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23-03-2012
to keep us motivated and feeling safe in life.. is that what consciousness needs in its frailty? The feeling of safety is viewed as one of the basic human needs in psychology. It's depressing to think that our existence requires some form of functional delusion in order to be happy and successful. "No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities." (Christian Nevell Bovee) What else is there to add? Reality is frightening and depressing, but our whole organism is built with one main aim - to survive. Both our physical body and our psyche. "I thought of it also as focusing on what is good" Yeah. Focus on the positive aspects. Think positively. Nice wording. Which practically means: 'Distort the reality', 'Live a lie'. Sure, sometimes a bit of willful concentration on the positive is justified. For instance, you love your spouse but she put on a few pounds, but you try to pay more attention to something else that you love about her because noone is perfect etc etc. But when they say that you only need to focus on the positive to love this world, I get a different image in my mind. Its like a woman staying with a man who is molesting her kids because she is concentrating on his positive traits of charcter. There are things so horrific in this world that they should never be deemed outweighed by any positive thinking. But... who wants to hear that? Life's great, put on your happy hats, sing along and dance like nothing ever happens. |
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24-03-2012 OK, now we are getting to something interesting.. because I don't know the answer to this or how I feel.This caught my attention: "Yeah. Focus on the positive aspects. Think positively. Nice wording. Which practically means: 'Distort the reality', 'Live a lie'." Two sides of my brain say different things. And neither is a dishonest impulse. I've had the experience of being brutally honest to the reality around me. It was so depressing, I lived near death for a long time. I've also had the experience of being in the zone with music or work/study and completely in the flow of life, where I was honest to the reality and saw the whole picture, and not delusional. Instead, my experience was seeing all this and choosing to focus on what I could do, to create. Seeing the capability of human beings on top of all the mess, and choosing to devote my energy to it. I would call it a focused intention while perceiving the whole picture. The engine of consciousness. The reason why I say this, is because this is a very interesting and subtle concept. What we perceive is not necessarily reality. What the news broadcasts is highly negative and I believe serves private interest to keep people negative and afraid, hence more enslaved to the system. What reality is real, that we perceive, is limited to our experience, which is shaped by our internal psychology and intention. I'm not saying the things you mentioned are not real. I am simply wondering here.. Aren't we engines of consciousness? The structure of our bodies and minds would support this. And if so, can't we create despite the other dark realities, without delusion? |
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24-03-2012
I've had the experience of being brutally honest to the reality around me. It was so depressing, I lived near death for a long time. And I'm not saying thats how people should live for the sake of truth. The conclusion, IMO, should be: 'I've seen how life is without delusions, and I'm not going to pass it on. Now back to my defense mechanisms and fancy rose colored glasses.' Then you concentrate on the positive, knowing that you're doing it to survive and feel good, but that this distorted vision isn't real. What the news broadcasts is highly negative and I believe serves private interest to keep people negative and afraid News should be talking about the negative events, about something that needs fixing. At least news! Look at all the other programs: dance, eat, follow celebrities' lives, watch tv shows. All - entertainment, aimed at helping people forget the troubles of life. I dont think anyone needs to be 'enslaving' people, they've never been free, their thinking has never been independent, the mass is a flock. I think the question 'but do we really know what reality is?' is predominately raised in discussions in response to the pessimistic evaluation of it. I don't think I've ever heard this point being made to counter the arguments of the optimists: "I think life is such a miracle and the good stuff always outweights the negative. Look at love, creativity, inspiration!" - "Yeah, you say life is great but isn't it just a product of your consciousness, how can we be sure its really as good as you're describing it?" No, for some reason it always pops up when the tough reality is mentioned. Then our mind immediately comes up with 'but maybe it isn't so real'. Like when people say to themselves when they're in trouble 'I don't believe this is happening'. Why do we tend to disbelieve that anything horrible can ever happen to us? Because we live on the assumption that life is friendly, and the bad stuff always happens to other people, like to characters in a movie, life wouldn't hurt us, we're real! |
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27-03-2012 Wait.. you're crashing my faith in the flying spaghetti monster.. my reality is coming apart! I had a thought today.. there is an interesting circuit in human beings. Have you heard about the propensity for truth experiments in human beings? It has been recorded in controlled experiments, that among the most successful people are those who are least honest! One group is professional athletes. It was stated, when asked about this, that if the athletes didn't presume that they were the fastest/best even before the fight had begun.. then they had lost the battle of the mind already. In short.. success was highly influenced by 'delusional' belief.. optimistic belief. This is what I'm talking about as us - as machines of consciousness. I think it is the machine itself that necessitates the bending of reality at first to enable the possibility of actually influencing that reality. Negative bending is sure to create failure from the get-go. In other words, there is a thin line between lying, complete delusion and success. If you fail, you are a deluded liar. If you succeed, you are lauded as a man who makes great things happen. I would argue, all great things that happen, begin with a 'lie' or delusion. "I don't think I've ever heard this point being made to counter the arguments of the optimists." Yes, because our continued existence depends on our survival which is threatened by pessimism. When faced with the large truth, taking the negative side and focusing on it, only decreases chances for survival.. no matter how true it is. This has made me continually angry to realize that life is technically built on lies to sustain itself. |
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28-03-2012
Wait.. you're crashing my faith in the flying spaghetti monster Don't you doubt FSM's existence, remember: he boiled for your sins! among the most successful people are those who are least honest! Hey, I knew that back in school. Those who could lie with a straight face were doing better having to make less efforts. if the athletes didn't presume that they were the fastest/best even before the fight had begun.. then they had lost the battle of the mind already Perhaps that's true. Im only thinking how did they establish the fact that only those who were overly optimistic won. Because most can feel fastest/best before the start, and if you interview them afterwards - only the winners will say 'yeah, i always knew i was the best'. But also, theres optimism bias. And the effects of it aren't always pretty. This has made me continually angry to realize that life is technically built on lies to sustain itself. Yeah, but at some point its good to add some irony/sarcasm to it and just treat the fact like a bad joke. Of universal proportions, hehehe))) |
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29-03-2012 Every night I sacrifice a pot of noodles for my sins. Here is the radio broadcast on human deception, containing information on the experiment (about 47:30): http://www.radiolab.org/2008/mar/10/ This includes discussion of the experiment on professional swimmers (Dr. Joanna Starek). The athletes were given a questionnaire at the beginning of the season, which asked a series of probing questions which had been shown before, experimentally, to be incredibly accurate at pinpointing self-deception. These questions only required 'yes' or 'no' answers and essentially contained controversial subjects that all people are trained by society to answer 'no' to, even though it is demonstrated that a majority of human beings experience these as true. Then the swimmers competed as usual to qualify by the end of the season. The researchers simply correlated data from the questionnaire to those who qualified and those who didn't. Those who qualified, overwhelmingly, answered 'no' to all these questions. In other words. They were liars. I think this same brain circuitry concerns our need for a God delusion.. and why people who believe in God often are happier and more worry free than those who don't. I feel like we are these weak, fallible organisms in a harsh world, unable to conceive of why we are here. Deception and self-deception (about God, etc.) helps us cope with reality and have a more satisfying, successful life. The evolving mind's protection against its own probing nature. Like you said above, in psychotherapy, it is known that safety is the primary need of the organism. Maybe all these mechanisms are ways to create a feeling of safety, when in fact it does not exist. |
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29-03-2012 The end of the broadcast I thought was said so well:"That questionnaire served a couple of purposes. One of the things it taught us, was that people who are happiest are the ones who are lying to themselves. The people who are the most realistic, who actually see the world exactly as it is, tend to be slightly more depressed than others. Time and time again, researchers have found that depressed people lie less! They see all the pain in the world, how horrible people are with each other, and they tell you everything about themselves: what their weaknesses are, what terrible things they have done to other people.. and the problem is.. they're right. And so, maybe the way we help people is to help them be wrong. It might just be that hiding ideas that we know to be true, that hiding those ideas from ourselves, is what we need to get by. We're so vulnerable to being hurt, that we're given the capacity to distort, as a gift." |
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15-04-2012
And so, maybe the way we help people is to help them be wrong. Sure, I'd love to agree with that, but it has a downside I just can't accept. You help people live in their illusions and they keep having children. That's what got me here. If my parents were living looking reality in the face, they wouldn't have decided to have kids. How long should we tolerate this madness? Endlessly? If one generation of people was brave enough to acknowledge the futility and brutality of life, hundreds of others would have been spared already. If we continue supporting a lie, more people will suffer in the future. And then those people who you support in their illusions will tell you 'go kill yourself if you're not glad to be alive, stop whining!'. Is this what you want to preserve? |
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01-01-2014 I believe that one of the main reason people create Gods and religions is that they don't know how to answer to these questions:Why were we born? Why are we here? Why we die? Why we exist? They are afraid that maybe humans have no meaning, maybe they are just a toy that was created by a supreme being, a God, or some Aliens...which in the end is the same. So they create Gods but if you think about it is not God that created humans like him/her, but humans created Gods like them...selfish, arrogant, snob, cruel. Personally I was raised Christian but already around 10 years old I had many doubts, I didn't even want to do the first communion. So I don't believe in any Gods now. Why I should cheat myself and pretend to believe in something. I only think that maybe I will know some more about the real meaning of human existence when I die. And for that I am not afraid to die. I am just curious to know if I'll have some answers after I die. For now I live without certainties. If you have doubts it is ok, maybe it is even better instead of having certainties. |
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01-01-2014
I agree. It's a scary world, religions attempt to mitigate that horror. I'm afraid al answers are in already. We are a by-product of this evolution machine just like dinosaurs were. I think when you die - you die, there is no reason to suggest you are anything but a brain and once it's dead there's no one to realize r find out anything any more. On a positive note, no one to be tormented by the lack of answers either )) |
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07-01-2014 Ciao Irina, maybe this is not the right post about it but I'd like to know what you think about it: We don't really know why we live but if we look around like animals we are driven by some instincts. We eat because eating keeps us alive. Eating is a waste of energy but the being (God, aliens?) that created us want us to eat so it gives us pleasure to do it so we eat and we keep alive, at least for some years. Another instinct is to look for a partner to have sex with so we can generate other humans. Of course having sex is even more a waste of energy than eating and none will do it if the creator hadn't given us the pleasure in doing that and it's funny sometimes to see that in some sex positions humans are like animals when they have sex. So in a way it seems that we are slaves, puppets or a game for the being that created us with these instincts. Now, is it possible to rebel and go against the instincts? I don't know.Sometimes I also wonder why some great people who were then venerated, and led to the creation of religions, used to fast and not to have sex. Maybe that is the secret to reach a kind of Nirvana? Maybe if we rebel to the instincts that it/they what us to follow, we become really free? While everyone talks and thinks about eating and above all sex. mostly everything we do is related to sex, isn't it a bit sad that we are actually slave of these instincts? |
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11-01-2014
Hi Luca, [Moved your comment to the God existence related post.] I just think "the being (God, aliens?) that created us" is a baseless assumption. We don't know everything, but inserting any sort of creator(s) only raises more questions as to where did the creator(s) come from and if they came out of nothing at some point or have always existed, why can't we assume the same for our Universe? And where specifically humans come from we learn from evoluton. Then, seeing intent behind the laws of biology or physics etc doesn't seem right. Just because something happenned doesn't mean it was planned by some intelligence. More than 90% of species that ever populated this planet are gone. They also did all that breathing, eating, copulating and yet - they're all gone. What reason do we have to suspect any intent behind this story and think we as a species were meant for something greater? Sometimes I also wonder why some great people who were then venerated, and led to the creation of religions, used to fast and not to have sex. Maybe that is the secret to reach a kind of Nirvana? Some fast, others meditate, some - get drunk or high... People try all sorts of stuff because why not? You are locked in a cage for the time being and it's logical to try and find the best way to do your time or even some mort of way out. mostly everything we do is related to sex, isn't it a bit sad that we are actually slave of these instincts? We are not free. We have this pleasure/pain thing instilled from the day we're born. Like other sentient creatures of this planet. It is sad I agree. |
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11-01-2014 Ciao Irina, always interesting to read your answers.I just think "the being (God, aliens?) that created us" is a baseless assumption. We don't know everything, but inserting any sort of creator(s) only raises more questions as to where did the creator(s) come from and if they came out of nothing at some point or have always existed, why can't we assume the same for our Universe? Is it true, we don't know everything and sometimes I think it is better to raise questions instead of believing in fake certainties of religions. Just because something happened doesn't mean it was planned by some intelligence. More than 90% of species that ever populated this planet are gone. They also did all that breathing, eating, copulating and yet - they're all gone. What reason do we have to suspect any intent behind this story and think we as a species were meant for something greater? I don't think that we were meant for something greater. Maybe humans have no meaning. But I think I can't say that as other species are extinct there is no meaning or intent behind the creation of the human species. Maybe there is a "lower" meaning and we are an experiment or a toy created by a superior being and maybe even if we one day become extinct this is all part of the experiment and this supreme being doesn't really care. I can't say that for sure we have a meaning but I can't also say the opposite. In any case I always think that it is more correct to remain with hundreds of doubts and questions instead of believing in fake ideas as many people do just because these questions can be frightening. |
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22-02-2014 What about igtheism? I think it is the most intelligent position among irreligious positions. |
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