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28-08-2013
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I didn't mean that there's an on/off-gene for antinatalism - I just didn't make it clear that I was talking about a predisposition. What I meant was this: All humans - due to their neocortex - are already dangerously close to becoming sane and seeing life for what it really is. That's the reason for religion and drugs and funny Youtube videos. Traits like intelligence or rationality are variable within the human population and at least intelligence has a strong genetic part and these are "risc factors" when it comes to seeing reality as it is.Most humans manage to stay below a certain threshold of clarity and rationality and are reasonably content with their life (or at least they convince themselves they are). But some are not so lucky and - by a combination of genetics (too intelligent) and/or nurture (childhood experiences or whatever) they get pushed above this threshold and end up at your blog :-)In order to reduce the frequency of a given trait in a population, even a slight decrease in reproductive success is sufficient over time. Gay people should be much more common, but their reduced number of children leads to a lower frequency of the gayness-inducing genes. So I'm speculating that something similar happens to antinatalists: all the really smart and rational caveman decided to walk into a sabre-toothed tiger 200000 years ago, thereby reducing the frequency of genes predisposing one to antinatalism. And what's left is the mass of content people and the occasional antinatalist.... and of course, the very humans who finally take the "red pill" and see the "desert of the real" are those who don't reproduce and therefore our genes die out and left over are those more gullible and the whole thing continues... quote:
neh...this presupposes 'taking the red pill' is a genetical trait. not necessarily. (gays keep appearing and they would've died out. it is thought that being gay is a genetical predisposition+hormones while in mother's womb+nurture.) actually, it'd have been fine by me if it was all genetics. then only those who had a strong love for this circus would've been born. |
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28-08-2013
ok, predisposition sounds better. but still, walking into a sabre-toothed tiger doesn't seem like an easy rout people would often take... even today, shooting one's brains out isn't easy. plus, given the virtual absence of contraception in the past and the fact that many people often start thinking about life more deeply in their older age, I think it's safe to assume antinatalists would have reproduced just as well, long before they'd had discovered themselves to be antinatalists. today this may be the case, too. people have kids too early in life, when they're still healthy, full of energy, their parents alive etc. and later, when they start getting disappointing and frustrating information about life, they'll have to resist it, because they've already made a committment, they had kids in this world, it is harder to admit they've made a mistake that can not be fixed. |
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28-08-2013 Well, Irina, I was really low when I wrote that. There was a time when low feelings used to be less intense, or at least I could weather them a bit more easily. Not any more. Getting old does not seem to help me in this regard.I really wish I was like the majority you refer to… Compared to them, I don't even have a life. Like you, I used to be able to distract myself; mostly by wasting time at the computer. It does not work very well nowadays. Unlike you, I don't have hobbies (unless walking and riding a bike count as such). As for love: no luck there. Unrequited love sucks. Just like now: two dreary months (and counting). At least you have the necessary courage and self-esteem to find somebody. And the looks, of course. Finding attractive women – either here, in Hungary, or anywhere else – is not a problem (what a surprise), but bumping into someone with whom you are sufficiently compatible…wow, that must require a miracle. So I can relate to that. Finding someone with a brain and a heart, and a lack of desire to have children… (Although anyone with a brain would probably reject me, regardless of what I look like.) I live in the wrong country, too. Wrong planet, come to think of it. I am at a loss what to do. I thought I could live alone – I have serious doubts about that after so many wasted years. Isolation did not work out. But it's very hard to break out of it. Thanks for taking your time to reply. It's oddly comforting to know that there is somebody who can relate to what I wrote. At least a single person, in a neighbouring country, a thousand and odd kilometers away. |
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28-08-2013
Funny, when I was a kid and first started thinking of the concept of 'old', I thought people changed mentally too when their appearance chancged, that they were old inside as well, and stopped wanting the stuff youngsters craved :D Well, that'd be fare, I thought. Apparently, that's not the case. It's just the same person caged inside an old shell. What a joke! "Old age - it's just mean. I think it is the ignorance of god, when he allows people to survive to old age." (Faina Ranevskaya) I live in the wrong country, too. Wrong planet, come to think of it. XD But of course, we all do)) Hey, I'd move to Budapest, I was just there a couple of weeks ago )) Problem is, I don't know a word in Hungarian. Oh wait... I know the 'beer' word, because it's same as Russian. Guess I could survive on beer...
There are more of people like me and you on FB antinatalism groups ;) |
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29-08-2013 Everyone seems pretty happy over here in the US. I have resorted to comparing myself to others when my depression gets bad enough. It wasn't Eastern Europe, though.I would say to myself "there is someone being gang raped somewhere right now, women are having their sex organs mutilated, there are parasite riddled kids in Africa who are being abducted and sold into prostitution." As awful as it is, I would read stories about Holodomor or the Rape of Nanking because it let me know I wasn't insane and the world really was as shitty as I thought it was. It did make me feel better because it made me feel less bad about being surrounded by happy people. It is awful, I know, but misery loves company. Of course, we know that there is trouble in paradise, with over 30,000 suicides in the US every year. And we prescribe a shit load of antidepressants as well. Girls are starving themselves because they are afraid of being fat and people are killing themselves out of fear of being ugly. Protein powder and penis enlargement is a big hit with the dudes. Men live in constant shame if they can't get with ladies and ladies are treated like shit and judged solely on their looks and willingness to put out. We in the US have all of our physical needs met but we are a bunch of insecure, miserable wretches. We are promised things that never come to pass, we reject religion because we think that we can be the masters of our destiny, and then we realize that our destiny is to become worm food after years of physical illness. |
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29-08-2013
I have resorted to comparing myself to others when my depression gets bad enough. Doesn't seem to help me feel better most of the time. I'm better off not thinking about the suffering of anyone. Although there is something to it. A good horror movie helps forget the horrors of real life. We are promised things that never come to pass, we reject religion because we think that we can be the masters of our destiny, and then we realize that our destiny is to become worm food after years of physical illness. Well put.
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29-08-2013 See, I'm just trying to grab onto distractions, something that used to work to cheer me up.Well stated Irina. Basically sums up what I also feel, but the list of my distractions that work are getting fewer and less effective as time passes. I often wonder what happens when you have no options left on the list and you are only left with stark reality of life. But then again, I'm the cynical one not seeing the opportunities and silver linings in the cloud. To Irina and all the other regulars here, thanks for sharing some insightful comments. You can kind of say, highlight of the day. I just want to know who else get's irritated by this bucket list concept. I often get the look when asked the question since my answer is no, because for me it feels like stupid idea. Irina, thanks for fixing login |
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29-08-2013
but the list of my distractions that work are getting fewer and less effective as time passes. I often wonder what happens when you have no options left on the list and you are only left with stark reality of life. Some people on FB say they live their lives now with almost nothing cheering them up, constantly depressed. When I ask how they can endure that state for years they can't explain it. (( The force of my distractions also seems to be wearing off. But I intend on re-advertising them to myself and possibly seeking out smth. new. Damn, but that's so much work with no guaranteed result.
I know I like the movie. But the idea ... whatever. It's like a contrived meaning to one's existence. To jump with a parachute and what not. To me it seems no more important than a shopping list I often write.)) |
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29-08-2013
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I think it's safe to assume antinatalists would have reproduced just as well, long before they'd had discovered themselves to be antinatalists. today this may be the case, too. people have kids too early in life, when they're still healthy, full of energy, their parents alive etc. and later, when they start getting disappointing and frustrating information about life, they'll have to resist it, because they've already made a committment, they had kids in this world, it is harder to admit they've made a mistake that can not be fixed. In earlier times, there would probably was less antinatalism because life was so hard - if you have to fight to survive, you have less time to think. And suicide rates are lower in poor countries than in rich ones - even though I would consider living in Haiti a pretty good reason for suicide on its own. And granted, as soon as you have kids, you're less likey to "convert" and admit that giving birth is basically a crime. But I don't buy the idea that old people are more likely to become antinatalist. I don't have any data and few people openly state this philosophical attitude but Schopenhauer and Cioran were antinatalists from a young age and neither you nor Immendham look like you're going to buy a wheelchair anytime soon In my experience - which of course is just anecdotal - the tendency to philosophize decreases with age. Many young people think about "big questions", but with time they dumb down. At least there is data that religiosity increases with age. I see becoming an antinatalist as something akin to enlightenment in Zen rather than some gradual process - all it takes is one good hard look at reality and the conclusions become so unbelievable obvious. |
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29-08-2013
I agree. But I don't buy the idea that old people are more likely to become antinatalist. I meant people in their 30ies and older, wrong choice of words. Statistically, one would've seen more deaths and tragedies after the first quarter of life. Seeing tragedies alone doesn't make one a philosophical pessimist, but without it, it seems to me, one can not possibly adopt those views. So it's a necessary but not a sufficient condition. Like Buddha walking out of thew palace and seeing misery around. Worked for him, but some people wouldn't have been affected by the same scenes in the same way. Frankl got out of Nazi camps and went on to preach the meaning of life, god's will and such...
Sure. There seems to be a turning point at which a person chooses to bend over and enjoy the experience. And with old age the growing fear of death pushes many to turn to religion for its denial. Schopenhauer and Cioran were antinatalists from a young age and neither you nor Immendham look like you're going to buy a wheelchair anytime soon :-) And both writers had little financial problems far as I know: "Impossible to spend sleepless nights and accomplish anything: if, in my youth, my parents had not financed my insomnias, I should surely have killed myself." (Cioran) I see becoming an antinatalist as something akin to enlightenment in Zen rather than some gradual process - all it takes is one good hard look at reality and the conclusions become so unbelievably obvious. The conclusion that life is shit becomes obvious. But some still choose to try to make a candy out of it, make up some meaning and purpose and say "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength." |
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29-08-2013 @Irina: Yeah, the body falls apart on our way to death, but desires never seem to die. The unfulfilled ones sure don't go away.Hey, I'd move to Budapest, […] Problem is, I don't know a word in Hungarian. Oh wait... I know the 'beer' word, because it's same as Russian. Here's another one for you: "részeg". That's what you become if you drink too much beer. There are more of people like me and you on FB antinatalism groups Thanks, but I avoid Facebook like the plague. Besides, I don't think of myself as an antinatalist – I just haven't got the desire to have children, and I neither can, nor want to take responsibility for them. Also, I'm not a big fan of this world where there are no people anymore, only consumers, workers, wage slaves, human resources… (By the way, your site never seems to accept the security code for the first time.) |
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29-08-2013
Thanks, but I avoid Facebook like the plague. Ok. I hear that from many people. I've stayed away from FB myself for a long time. I gave up. It's just a medium for communication, and what I value there is the communication with like-minded people. I don't have to do anything else there. Besides, I don't think of myself as an antinatalist – I just haven't got the desire to have children, and I neither can, nor want to take responsibility for them. That's called 'childfree' then) Or childless by choice. Also, I'm not a big fan of this world where there are no people anymore, only consumers, workers, wage slaves, human resources… Anymore? You've seen a different arrangement? |
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29-08-2013 I've stayed away from FB myself for a long time. I gave up.I see nothing wrong with that: you find it useful, so you use it. Maybe I'll sign up one day, too. Right now I have no reason to do it. Anymore? You've seen a different arrangement? Okay, you are right: I've never seen it myself. |
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30-08-2013 I meant people in their 30ies and older, wrong choice of words.So, after 30 one is old? Now I'm insulted Schopenhauer and Cioran were antinatalists from a young age and neither you nor Immendham look like you're going to buy a wheelchair anytime soon And both writers had little financial problems far as I know: "Impossible to spend sleepless nights and accomplish anything: if, in my youth, my parents had not financed my insomnias, I should surely have killed myself." (Cioran) Schopenhauer was well off, but I don't think Cioran had a lot of money. There's a docu on Youtube on him (by an Ungarian television team) which is partially filmed in his flat and it was a pretty desolate and poor looking place. Writers generally earn only a very small percentage of what they generate. And I'm not sure finances have anything to do with it. Buddha certainly had enough mone before leaving the palace. If I were rich I'd be probably even more depressed. As it is, I still have to function in society and do stuff. Without that I would most likely spend my days huddled into an corner while sulking about the absurdity of it all |
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30-08-2013
So, after 30 one is old? Now I'm insulted :-) Hehe. Yeah, and at 40 you're practially senile :D XD No, I'm gonna be 30 next year, I wouldn't say that about myself. I only sound old, I'm still pretty well-preserved :D Age, financial situation and experience with suffering seem to interact with other factors and produce different results. The best way to determine what the interaction is, of course, would be some studies, not speculations. Because on one hand, for example, the life of poverty and misery and loss of loved ones to curable diseases that weren't cured because of the lack of money should make one think about life in a pessimistic way. But some seem to adopt the 'I shall overcome' moto and aqcuire a sense of life in fighting the circumstances, overcoming the obstacles and proving to themselves that they're strong and wallowing in the narcissistic supply of the applauding crowd. Others will have their spirits crushed by the same experience. Perhaps because their love for their loved ones was stronger than their need to prove anything to themselves. And their desire to understand why the world works in this cruel way was stronger than the desire to be among the winners of this world. So, it seems to be a number of dispositions of the personality + the experience. Some become rich and they say: "Now, this is the life! Let's acquire more wealth!" And others go: "Ok, so I'm rich, now what?" |
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30-08-2013 Recommended book: Candide, by Voltaire.Free download at: http://manybooks.net/titles/voltaire1994219942-8.html This book is an acid critic to Leibniz's "best of all possible worlds" 'Critics of Leibniz, such as Voltaire, argue that the world contains an amount of suffering too great to justify optimism. While Leibniz argued that suffering is good because it incites human will, critics argue that the degree of suffering is too severe to justify belief that God has created the "best of all possible worlds"' From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds |
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30-08-2013
Agreed. I've read it like 10 years ago and all I remember was that I liked it but not much more. I should probably re-read it at least partly when I have time, because today my worldview is much less optimistic than back then. Voltaire is great) Very witty smart man. |
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31-08-2013 Recommended web pages: http://academicearth.org/ http://oyc.yale.edu/ Thanks to the free resources provided by those web pages, I found a very interesting course, that I also recommend: DEATH, by professor Shelly Kagan Collection at: http://oyc.yale.edu/philosophy/phil-176#overview http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEA18FAF1AD9047B0&feature=plcp Just a few comments: 1.- In my personal opinion, first chapters about dualism are much less interesting than the last ones. It is astonishing that in 2013 we keep on talking about the soul, given all the information provided by neuroscience. But so many people still believe in those things. 2.- Watching these videos from a critical point of view, anybody will find many more questions than answers, and even will strongly disagree with professor Kagan (don't be surprised that he might be doing this on purpose). And yet, it is an excellent food for the mind. 3.- Unfortunately, some time ago 'http://academicearth.org' changed its design. The old design allowed to see that this course was among the best rated courses, only surpassed by (at that time): 'Introduction to Psychology with Paul Bloom' https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6A08EB4EEFF3E91F Also highly recommended. Actually I watched more than once some of the videos of this course over time, due to not only the high quality of the provided information but also some funny instances. If anyone reading this comment give these videos a try, ENJOY! |
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02-09-2013
I've seen both playlists some time ago. I'd also recommend Harvard's course on Justice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY&list=SP30C13C91CFFEFEA6 Raises many philosophical questions, gives an overview of ethical theories. |
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02-09-2013 The best way to determine what the interaction is, of course, would be some studies, not speculations.I'm planning to look into the scientific literature about happiness anyway - I'll let you know if I find something interesting.Age, financial situation and experience with suffering seem to interact with other factors and produce different results. My gut feeling would be that the words depression/unhappiness and so on mix together two very different things: being unhappy about something (which probably can be fixed through action/medication/fun) and being existentially unhappy about the whole damn thing. I read a bit into Yalom's work about existential psychotherapy, but it seems to be the same empty "bite the bullet and get used to it"-sh** like Camus and Frankl. Anyway, thank you for the discussion. |
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02-09-2013
depression/unhappiness and so on mix together two very different things: being unhappy about something (which probably can be fixed through action/medication/fun) and being existentially unhappy about the whole damn thing. Yep. The latter is sometimes called existential depression. But some psychologists don't wan't to make that distinction. Yeah, I thought of buying Yalom's 'Starring at the Sun' but after reading the comments on it thought I'd pass. If it's really mostly about Epicurianism as a solution like this commenter states I have heard that before. Another commenter made a good point about 'rippling': "...Dr. Yalom attempts to convince us that even though our lives are transient, they can have meaning through the influences we leave behind. Anyone who has thought seriously about the transient nature of the world knows that this is bull. The influences we leave behind are just as transient as we are." Was a pleasure. Yes, do dump interesting links on me :) |
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14-05-2014 I am just repeating what has been said by many others, but I always wonder at the 'death fear' so many people have; assuming, of course, that its basis is an objective judgement and not merely the human survival instinct - and that an objective judgement is possible given the strength of that instinct. If so, I feel sorry for them. The only positive attached to life is that it is finite. If we lived forever, as so many claim they would like to, now that would be intolerable. As for me, the certainty of death is the only thing that keeps me going... |
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