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27-12-2011 Hey gorgeous, you've been busy. Thanks for great read that gives me intellectual exercise between my own writing. (novel)First, two great quotes I'll be adding to my little file of favorites. "If you participate in life, you don’t see it clearly: you suffer from it too much or enjoy it too much." (Gustave Flaubert) " Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" (Voltaire) Cheers! My life has gone from enjoying it too much, to suffering too much, to non-participation, making me more philosophical and existential, so I find this well written piece not pessimistic, but eloquently realistic. I'm wondering about those close to you. Do you have parents, siblings, do they know this about you? When I bring issues like this up with most people, it is usually followed by an uncomfortable silence. At this point, I've also learned anything further in this direction will not be appreciated or probably understood. How does your outlook in these regards play into your other relationships? |
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27-12-2011
Hey ExpatChris Thanks for an encouraging comment, I wouldn't expect many of the kind to this particular post. so I find this well written piece not pessimistic, but eloquently realistic. thats what it is for me, but I was just making an introduction 'for the masses', from the point of view of the popular outlook on life. With friends and family I do not bring this subject up myself, unless I'm asked about the related issues. For various reasons. I hate to be the one bringing 'bad news'. See people more or less functioning in their happy delusions and find myself not wanting to ruin it for them. With others I don't even see a point in starting the topic, they're too close-minded anyway. And then with a few I share my position openly. Yes, silence is a common reaction, but then you have to give people time to 'digest' this counterintuitive view and maybe someday they'll be able to acknowledge it is reasonable. Here on my blog I feel more free to express my not too popular views because closing the browser window should be even easier than asking me to shut up)) And also because there are people out there who're disillusioned as well, and they, like everybody else, need to know they're not alone. Novel, eh? I was just thinking why don't you start your own blog or smth, since you seem to be writing pretty fast (efficiency) and have things to say (content) )) |
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27-12-2011 Actually, I have a blog. http://thelonelyexistentialist.blogspot.com/ Nearly forgot I had it. I think after 6 months and no comments, I lost interest. I am far more interactive.I had lots of friends when younger that were clever and engaging. Once they put on their parent hats, they seemed to shed their intellectual capacity. It's not so much about ego for me, rather about connection to other kindred spirits. This is actually my second novel. As my company has been in development research phase for the last 5 or more years, there is little for me to do, and I live in a very proletariat area here and striking up conversations like these here, is virtually impossible. I tell people that I was a musician, and am a partner in a biotech company and a writer and they have no comment. I then listen to their conversations, to see what interests them, and it's usually grocery store bargains, and tabloid topics. Overhearing conversations on the bus are almost always, "what did you buy today, what are you making to eat, and what is your family up to." So yeah, three years of writing, and contemplation, all provided by some misfortune, again, a sliver lining to the cloud, has made me a fast writer. I can't stare at my own text all day without distraction. I do need some experience to write and address the human condition. It's normally a negative that inspires me to voice my frustration, but sometimes, not often, I am perplexed by agreement like when finding the CF forums and your blog. ; ) I actually found your blog looking for Cf videos to post on the forums, BTW. 2nd Novel is nearly finished. I want to really be sure how I finish it, so I'm taking it slow and allowing myself the indulgence of distraction you're seeing so much of. Well I certainly hope more people with their messages in bottles thrown out into the sea that is the internet, gradually find each other. I think I only have one other friend that thinks on these lines. Also CF, single, artist, with MS. Says he prefers his illness to working. Early retirement if you will. He does tend to rant on the same topics over and over though, like he forgot we already spoke of this before. At least there are some Germans that like to discuss things, even if the topics are realistically depressing. In America the idea is delusion in the face of reality. The quote " Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" (Voltaire), is quite apropos. Authors and Oprah, and authors on the Oprah show, all try to hypnotize people into merely trying to overlook reality and chocolate coat it with self delusion. This "power of positive thinking" has never worked for me, and I doubt anyone else, other than those that made lots of money by selling books trying make people feel better about the cold reality we face. My hopes in people accepting reality, isn't a "misery loves company" type of thing. I think if people stop doing the things that make them unhappy, and lying to themselves about it, maybe they would be free to enjoy their lives, with more involvement in politics, art, and better sex, all that seem to be inhibited by the provincial life and mindset. |
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27-12-2011
I think you gave up on your blog too fast. Not easy for a blog to become even somewhat popular, much less for a blog with 'non-tabloid' topics)) Factors that help are regular updates (at least a couple times a month), proper meta tags (seo), link building, including your blog address in a signature on forums, linking new blog posts from twitter... With this blog I hardly spend any time promoting it, I have commercial projects to invest time into. Been writing diaries for many years while in school, and noone ever read them, but I still felt better I love Voltaire. He was brilliant. I have a list of his quotes and I can't decide which is or are my favorites, they're so witty and spot on. How do you like: "Common sense is not so common"? The one you liked is from his "Candide: or, Optimism". Another line from there is "If this is the best of possible worlds, what then are the others?" Im not sure if people are better off or worse off having delusions. But its clear that as long as they're going to continue admiring the kings new dress, the'yre going to keep on breeding, coz why not have a baby if everythings all right here. Then at least some portion of people will suffer from the willful self-hypnosis of the majority, and thats what makes these delusions harmful. Why do those who do not want to wear rose-colored glasses all their lives have to be punished for seeking the truth while the majority prefers anything that feels nice? |
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27-12-2011 Haven't really given up per se. I've been to busy with my novel. When not writing in monologue style, I prefer human interaction and engagement, like I have here or on forums.I also tend to save my more creative revelations for my books. As a musician, I saw my creativity often stolen or imitated, with others claiming my ideas as their own and making a profit off of it. Speaking of which, I heard Benjamin Franklin was known to say " common sense is uncommon." Also, Horace Greeley. Perhaps the Americans lifted it and their disdain of the French kept them from giving proper credit to "Le sens commun est fort rare." I often find comedians today some of our only popular existentialists. The problem is, that many laugh at their common misfortunes. It makes them feel better to laugh at themselves, but like a temporary drug. There was a good parody of the Oprah show, on a comedy show I like. It was about promoting one of these "positive thinking" books. First, they interviewed a women who lost her husband but was thinking positively to get him back. Oprah asked her if he came back, and she said no, but that would be being negative, so even though he's not back, yes, he is back. They interview a poor man in the Sudan. They tell him his outlook is keeping him from being happy and ask if he got the book. He said yes. They asked if he read it and he said no, that he was so hungry, he ate it. "Im not sure if people are better off or worse off having delusions." You're the psychologist, but I think delusion is lying to oneself. I find people getting crazier all the time. I often wonder if it's like the computer HAL in 2001 that was programmed to lie and went nuts because of it. I find a lesser genuine life better than an illusory better life. The juicy steak may be nicer in the Matrix, but knowing it's a dream, I'll take the real porridge. Plus I find more tranquility in sanity. |
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27-12-2011
"Im not sure if people are better off or worse off having delusions." You're the psychologist, but I think delusion is lying to oneself. Sure, but many psychologists are also promoting coping mechanisms as a solution. Take Frankl's 'Man in search for meaning'. God, hidden sense beyond suffering, the ability to find meaning in concentration camps... Positive thinking while helping some hurts the others. Those, for whom it doesn't work, are being blamed for not trying hard enough to find positive aspects where there aren't any, or where the negatives clearly outweigh the positives. Its the continuous rape of your own brain and that common sense thats not too common. If you havent yet heard Barbara Ehrenreich speaking on this particular subject you're gonna love it Smile or Die You can also find a longer version of that lecture on youtube. They asked if he read it and he said no, that he was so hungry, he ate it. :D Yeah, as they say here 'i smeh i greh' - which is 'both laughter and a sin' - a line that we say when we find funny something that we probably shouldn't be laughing at. I saw my creativity often stolen or imitated, with others claiming my ideas as their own and making a profit off of it. I believe you. People do that. |
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27-12-2011 That's a great vid. I have to post that on my FB. Ehrenreich was on one of the few TV shows I watch.http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-october-14-2009/barbara-ehrenreich "Thanks for an encouraging comment, I wouldn't expect many of the kind to this particular post." Btw, if you find it surprising to expect it from me personally, My philosophical ponderings regarding meaning of life beyond life itself, don't provide me with any real comfort. The ironies seem to merely cause curiosity and an open mind regarding abstracts and the conceptual. These are merely theoretical and have no effect on my perception of reality. It's not just my current dry existence that maintains my congruent with yours opinion, but an awakening that has occurred. Even if my predicament changes, and I sell a million books, or my company does well, or I get a job as a tantric sex instructor, I know now that the joy of those things can be fleeting. Hard to imagine as a tantric sex instructor, but probably also the case. I have had more money in the past and bought nice things that sit in my flat, but they don't provide any joy any longer. Like you said, there is always the reality of life other than your own. Perhaps a humanitarian life is the most rewarding, helping others, but my health is a hindrance there now. I have done it in the past, and I find it often like having children, much sacrifice and little thanks. Also, there is the placebo concept. I think this works for only certain people. There are those with what appears to be high hormone levels, endorphins, dopamine, seratonin. They might fair better in the happiness, positivity factor, but they also suffer from what was elucidated so well in the quote, "If you participate in life, you don’t see it clearly: you suffer from it too much or enjoy it too much." (Gustave Flaubert) They may not know what they are missing, but are most likely missing a lot if their focus is egotistic and not on seeing the real problems and helping to do something about it. |
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27-12-2011
Btw, if you find it surprising to expect it from me personally No, not really)) I have had more money in the past and bought nice things that sit in my flat, but they don't provide any joy any longer. Thats why they release new versions of same gadgets regularly. Update your joy! Like you said, there is always the reality of life other than your own. Yes, and its funny how they say if you're feeling down, think of someone who has it worse. Ironically, thats exactly what upsets me in the first place! There are people who have it much worse than me, and I'm supposed to be happy about it? Perhaps a humanitarian life is the most rewarding I think humanitarian activities can increase one's satisfaction and fulfillment, I think there were even some studies showing this, but also, I suspect if you get involved in a direct way and head off to see those poor miserable people and witness their plight with your own eyes it, it may make you somewhat more miserable yourself. So wiring a sum of money might be better than volunteering to do some work yourself. Talking about Gustave Flaubert, thats his advice on happiness: "To be stupid, selfish, and have good health are three requirements for happiness, though if stupidity is lacking, all is lost." Tantric sex instructor, eh? Not bad))) Thatd be a job that could very well inspire you for a new novel. |
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27-12-2011 "Tantric sex instructor, eh? Not bad))) Thatd be a job that could very well inspire you for a new novel."Might be inspired, but doubt I would have the energy to accomplish it after spending my days in sensual ecstasy followed by sleep induced by low blood pressure and prolactin. If that were the case, porn stars would possibly be the happiest people in the world, but that's not case from interviews and testimonies. Everything can become boring and it's kick can entropy. Enjoying things takes a sense of balance. That's why I think that couple I know that stay together only on the weekend, are relationship geniuses. They know to stay away enough so as not to wear out their welcome, and actually how to miss each other. |
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31-12-2011 When i was in grade 12 I said two things - that I never wanted to get married and i never wanted to have kids. A life centred around family seemed to me the most pointless and cliched of existences, and my own family was proof of what a pile of rubbish was talk about family values and the joy children can bring.My own life has been one marked by physical pain and infirmeries. The greatest treatment has come through meditation practice, which is, among other things, a withdrawal from and contemplation of life, and a coming to terms with the reasons for suffering. And how we cause our own. I was an atheist as soon as I could think rationally about the matter (early teens) and a read of military history (I come from an air force family) including a lot of holocasut literature, was all it took to teach me about the nature of our reality. This is the first post of yours I've read, and I am looking forward now to reading many more. I was going to suggest Barbara Ehrenreich to you about halfway through, but I see you beat me to it. My physical pains have been a merciless teacher. They have also left me feeling quite alone at times, as I listen to platitude after platitude from people who cannot understand what I deal with. However, in finding my own way out - meditation, renunciation, contemplation - i know I have freed myself from a lot of delusion. And...yes, you're absolutely gorgeous... |
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31-12-2011
When I was reading ur comment, I thought it was going to end with smth like 'but now I know better so I have family, kids and think we can beat every pain in our lives' :))) Glad it isn't that kind of comment. You mention Holocaust, which of course was a gruesome crime, and we have another atrocity of massive proportions that happenned here, so we study it more thoroughly than all the others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Parents eating their children to survive. Doesn't get much more horrific than that if you ask yourself what people are capable of. Sorry about ur pains. Thanks :) |
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01-01-2012 Thanks for the post about the Holodomor. I knew from my reading a bit about the event already, but not so much the details. Also about the purges of the army Stalin commited in 1937.Actually, the meditation IS helping me to beat the pain, but it works very slowly. I've been at it for years, but think i am on the home-stretch now...maybe...so there will be at least one less pain. Marriage or children however, are not options. Like you, I had never heard of anti-natalism until I came across some YT videos on the subject. I'm not sure I can endorse it as a philosophy I would wish to adopt as a program for humanity though. I never thought about my choice not to have children as anything but my choice, not a worldview. maybe that will change as I learn more about the issue. I was glad to come across your article as it is the sort of summary I was looking for. I had seen some of the Immendeham's(spelling?) YT videos (Gary Mosher, the guy with the long blonde hair, scruffy looking), as well as something by Anti-Bullshit Man. I was curious about a remark by Gary that parents have children only for selfish reasons...do you share that belief? Does not love play any role in the decision to have children? I know there are many awful parents out there (tiara wearing dwarf children...speaking of parents who eat their young...) but ALL of them? ONLY for selfish reasons? Also, are you sure your comment notification thing is working, as I don't get an email when you respond. |
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01-01-2012
parents have children only for selfish reasons...do you share that belief? You know that the answer to this question has no bearing on the antinatalism. Regardless of the motives, the consequences are the same, and it is still wrong to enable the possibility of sufferring. Can you think of one non-selfish reason? I guess smth like 'I want to love my kid and care for it and give it a better life than I had' would probably sound selfless to many people. But it's only if you do not pay attention to the 'I want' in the beginning. Whenever you are seeking a satisfaction of your own desire, you're acting selfishly. Does not love play any role in the decision to have children? Love for whom? An abstract unborn person? Can you really love or hate them? ;) Thanks for reminding me of the comments notification, Ill be fixing it today. |
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01-01-2012 Hey Irina,Great to read you succinct summary! Definitely agree with it. I have plenty of AN links on my own blog about this topic. Just click on my name and you'll see not only what I wrote so far, but a small but devoted community of kindred spirits in the sidebar. |
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01-01-2012
Hi filrabat, thanks for the comment! I'm sure I've seen your blog before, will come to visit sometime :) |
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01-01-2012 Hmmm...I asked those questions as when I first discovered the AT videos and philosophy I spoke with a friend about it (another childless/atheist/ non-marriage supporter...although he's gay, so the childless part...) and that was his first question. I think he was speaking more about children the parents already have, not the abstract unborn.I never really thought much about my declaration that I did not want children or marriage...or why I decided there was no god. These choices just felt right to me and made sense to my worldview. I'd have to think and research on the AT philosophy to decide whether I would endorse it the way the AT people would. |
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01-01-2012
well, strictly speaking, antinatalism isn't even a philosophy. Just like atheism isn't. Both are only positions on a single issue. Antinatalism - on a birth issue, atheism - on the god(s) issue. People who support those positions may have their own philosophies - we all sort of do have our own life philosophies. I don't think you need to think hard why you don't want children. On the contrary, when I'm asked why don't I want kids, I'm asking them back why they think anyone should. The burden of explaining is on those who choose to involve other people in this game without their consent, not on those who abstain from procreation. Can does not equal should. |
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07-01-2012 It's almost a year ago when i first read one of your articles and surprise surprise i'm back again when I should be revising (in fairness I was just took a break) have to be honest though this really was a long one so I had to give up not even half way through, just scrolled down then read a few of your and Expat Chris's comments even these had to be left half read sorry to you both.. will be back though to read more of this interesting piece and thoughts, perhaps even leave a more conclusive comment.. one point/question/thought i will share was when reading your comments about blogs it made me think about how i wouldn't write one because (perhaps, among other things) i don't want to influence people or to create something that would then be out of my control (as in how it is perceived, ken I could delete or alter it) which i thought was a perhaps a bit ironic? given the subject matter I know i'm leaving a comment here but maybe thats like looking after someones kids or being a good uncle.. Anyway maybe I'm just clutching at straws, it just sprung to mind and felt like sharing also I'm not slagin (ridiculing) blogging or suggesting the gravity is in any way similar just pondering really Take it easy B p.s i also liked the quotes, you're obviously well read p.p.s not sure i like the copy function you have installed though because since I am not I have to google quite a few words or people to get the full perspective |
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07-01-2012
will be back though to read more of this interesting piece and thoughts, perhaps even leave a more conclusive comment.. that would be great reading your comments about blogs it made me think about how i wouldn't write one because (perhaps, among other things) i don't want to influence people or to create something that would then be out of my control (as in how it is perceived... people influence each other when they speak or write, and the message does not always get across as intended, but that's an inevitable side-effect of any communication. still, better to write, read and think)) not only blogging, same applies to book writing and journalism.i do agree, however, that its important to try and express ur views as clearly as possible to prevent misunderstandings or taking out of context. not sure i like the copy function sorry, but it has to stay, theres a good reason for that function)) |
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25-01-2012 This entry is frankly amazing! Every few paragraphs you bring in some new insight. I love it! This is definitely the best intro to antinatalism I've ever seen.Do you have any more entries on antinatalism? I didn't find any. Also, do you know any other pages about that monkey experiment? That seemed very promising. |
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25-01-2012
Some more details on Masserman's empathy experiment can be found in Google if you search for "masserman 1964 empathy" for example. A bit more about it here http://www1.umn.edu/ships/ethics/allchin3.htm Also, monkeys aren't the only species. The other one I'm aware of are mice. http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004387#pone.0004387-Langford1 There may be more but those two Ive heard of back in college. Also, I know that empathy in animals is species-specific, so they couldn't care less about the members of any other species. But the fact that they care about anyone but themselves is already pretty amazing, especially seeing how some humans seem to lack (or suppress) even that ability. So the post looks like an introduction into antinatalism, huh? I just started writing it as my explanation for why I supported antinatalism, then I thought of all those counter-arguments that people might be raising here and thought, heck, Ill just deal with those in advance, so they're not somewhere in the comments (which people don't always read so they will keep asking same questions again and again), but in the artticle itself and so whenever someone makes a popular argument i won't have to type it again or even copy-paste it, ill just point to the anwer in the post. Truly, lainess is the engine of progress! (thats a saying we have here) I'll be writing more on the subject, but so far thats it. |
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19-02-2012 I thought you may like to know that I read your entire post... and agreed with every word! It's always bittersweet when one comes across another antinatalist. Of course, it goes without saying that I find nothing at all depressing about not creating new life. It just that, I'm always saddened when I discover another caged and empathetic soul.Thanks for your thoughtful contributions to this cesspit we must unfortunately call "home", and for your inaction where it really counts! All the best |
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