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04-06-2013 In nature most of the killing is done for food. Food that was not put in cages until they were ready to be killed in mass.In nature creatures are not used for experiments. In nature creatures are not used for entertainment. In nature creatures are not bred just to be killed and then worn as fur hats or coats. In nature creatures are eliminated as competition to ensure survival of said species, eg. lions killing hyena. In nature when a creature is killed there is zero waste. Can we say the same about how current system works, overproduction, unrealistic sell by dates, restaurants, exotic dishes. Are we really the superior species that can make a difference or are we just a type of parasite consuming and killing, using and abusing indiscriminately for our own gratification? |
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04-06-2013
Sure, in nature creatures eat one another to survive and reproduce. That doesn't however mean that the suffering experienced by living beings in nature is any less intense because they are being tormented for different reasons. I'm not making an argument that we are in any was justified in exploiting other sentinent beings and adding more suffering because there is suffering anyway. I'm just pointing out there is suffering anyway. The problem is not just humans, it's the wiring of life on Earth itself. |
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04-06-2013 Yes, this is the wiring of life on Earth itself, but this is the way we are. Pleasure cannot be perceived without pain. They are two sides of the same coin. Absence of suffering would be absence of pleasure. Contained therein is the meaning of life.Not an argument for existence, just acceptance of what is. |
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04-06-2013 @Irina, yes but since we are supposed to be intelligent and at top of food chain, should we not use our supposed intelligence and change how we interact with nature and each other. The fact that we still cannot resolve issues by verbally sorting out but rather resort to war means we are not as intelligent as we think and just another animal occupying surface of this earth.@John interesting concept that I'm trying to wrap my head around. For lack of better example, you mean I cannot enjoy good food without experiencing pain of fasting for 10 days at end or have nice messsage without having living shit beaten out of me beforehand? |
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05-06-2013
In many ways we are not like any other animal, clearly. We're far from perfect but - sadly - we're the most intelligent species on this rock and that's how we got on top of the food chain - by using our brains. But sure, we are animals as well, we're primates. Though I didn't get where you were going with this. |
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04-06-2013 No that's missing the point.. also confusing cruel and unusual with the normal.You cannot enjoy good food without the absence of food; struggle of work to earn the food to be able to share in with others. Try gorging on food past the point of satisfying hunger and I guarantee you won't enjoy it anymore. The longer you struggle and are hungry, the better the food will taste. Try walking for miles through wilderness, surviving on berries and vegetation, only to come back and have a simple sandwich at a diner. I guarantee it will be the best thing you have ever tasted. Try living in the city, earning an average wage in a cheap apartment. Dissatisfied and angry with life, you finally scrap enough together to take a trip to the countryside, and discover how difficult even the simplest thing is out there. How few opportunities, how much higher the level of ignorance. You come back and I guarantee you won't overstimulate on the same habitual patterns that led to dissatisfaction. You will appreciate the luxuries and technologies that have allowed us to rise free of the food chain and threats of nature. You will be so insanely happy every time you walk into a corner supermarket and can just give a few coins for food that you want. If you are rich and spoiled, and avoid pain as much as those people use their money to do.. you will not appreciate that massage. It will feel ineffectual and dull. Maybe one day it will feel decent. But you work all day in the sun, lifting and pushing your body, only to afford the first massage of your life, you will be blown away by the pleasure, relaxation.. overwhelmed with gratitude. The cruel and unusual is exactly what our society has been aiming to eliminate. The entire point of human society is to make life based on reason, predictability. To eliminate people from the food chain, natural disasters, torture, barbaric practice, racism, etc. Do we still have those things? Yes. But this is exactly what our entire species has been working thousands of years to improve and reduce. Eating animals is necessary. You should do it with the most respect and efficiency possible. I really agree with the Native American treatment of this. Honoring the earth because she gave all sustenance and every animal was a brother. Some cultures are less shitty than others. More enlightened with more to offer. Ours is more intelligent, but a lot less wise. What gets me now is through all of our improvement of the quality of life, through technology, we have turned into machines, honoring endless production instead of the life process. We have lost perspective. Our ugliness, greed, cruelties, undisciplined nature, hubris, laziness and ignorance all comes from the arrogance that the overproduction and overfocus on technology has afforded. We are an adolescent not taking responsibility for what we are doing. Addicted and not aware. |
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04-06-2013 I was reading about this animal testing of perfumes and vivisections, etc. at the end of your article Irina. So sad and gross that these things are being done, especially when focused towards useless mass consumer goods.No life should be put on the line unless for a gravely important purpose. However, it's important to note that until very recently in the history of life on earth, we have been subject to the terrors of other animals. They don't have the understanding and consciousness that we do. They attack viciously and without limit. We have been lucky to rise above this terror in the last |
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04-06-2013 Not sure why the comment got cut short..We have been lucky to rise above this terror in the last |
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04-06-2013 WTF? I can't put symbols in my typing? I had a 'less than' and percent sign in this line before it got cut off.We have been lucky to rise above this terror in the last 1% of all history. Now we look at animals like some poor victims of our savagery. Well they are at times, and we are foolish and insensitive about our power and technology. We need more wisdom, but I think you need to look at the full picture of our survival on this planet to put our recent actions in perspective. |
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05-06-2013
I always have a full picture in mind, that doesn't change anything for me. The more awareness and intelligence one has the more responsibility he bears, so while savage animals can not be held responsible for their actions people who can distinguish right from wrong can. Unless, of course, we start talking determinism in which case we'll probably end up saying nobody is responsible for anything, but then I'll just continue complaining because I was predetermined to do so. Sorry about the comment thing, I'll look into it when I get the chance. |
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05-06-2013 No problem about comments Irina. Just realized I put a 'less than' symbol and that is the opener for a tag. Must be HTML enabled here. I guess you want it to enable hyperlinks in the comments?I agree with you that since we have the intellect, we have the responsibility, and it is grossly abused. I wonder if this means the average IQ is not ready yet? I see you as a very intelligent person with far above average insight. Dumb people are seldom unhappy. They don't think deeply enough to see the cracks. How does one see them and still genuinely remain happy? I don't personally want to bring children into this world, but I think it is so important for those that do have insight to remain healthy for the sake of humanity. |
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05-06-2013
Yeah, I've installed an add-on that allows some html. I wonder if this means the average IQ is not ready yet? I think the problem is our intellect has evolved to serve our selfish needs, it takes a lot of effort to train ourselves to be unbiased. In most cases selfish motivation will influence our judgement and we will fnd a justification for doing what we do. We're addicts. Addicts do have logic and reason but that doesn't do them much good when they want a fix. I see you as a very intelligent person with far above average insight. Thank you. You are on my list of intelligent commenters, too :D How does one see them and still genuinely remain happy? "To be stupid, selfish, and have good health are three requirements for happiness, though if stupidity is lacking, all is lost." (Gustave Flaubert) How does one remain happy in a slaughterhouse, seeing his fellow humans taken out day after day? I guess with the help of the coping mechanisms evolution has equipped us with: distraction, denial, minimization, justification, rationalization etc. I don't personally want to bring children into this world, but I think it is so important for those that do have insight to remain healthy for the sake of humanity. Arguably being religious is healthier and it gives a person more strengh to overcome life's hardships. But it also has its downsides. Unfortunately, it's like that with many things. This is a messy world with messy stuff going on... |
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06-06-2013 Thought about what you said. I hit me all of a sudden what you are talking about with selfish addiction. "I think the problem is our intellect has evolved to serve our selfish needs, it takes a lot of effort to train ourselves to be unbiased. In most cases selfish motivation will influence our judgement and we will fnd a justification for doing what we do. We're addicts. Addicts do have logic and reason but that doesn't do them much good when they want a fix." This is precisely the thing that disgusts me about the majority of people. The selfish, shallow, spinal-cord-level reactionary thinking that pervades our society. The justification and bias. The pathetic brutishness that follows. The need for politics and bullshit to smooth over people's differences because they can't see beyond their own fingertips. I do think this is a low level IQ idiocy. And the planet is being filled with trash because of selfish people who don't discipline themselves more. Some is innocent: they are just too stupid to wrap their brain around it. But some is not. Through my work, I had to become unbiased. I worked hard at this particularly to be able to understand the truth of things separate from my own wants or needs. It was very hard, but something I felt deeply drawn to do. I've felt separated from the mass of people and less happy since. More aware of the truth of my own actions, less convinced of my specialness or greatness or of inherent meaning in life. It almost seemed like seeing unbiased truth was against the best intentions of my self. Seeing myself and the world squarely turned me more into an angry and disappointed Doug Stanhope. I have come to believe that we have evolved to filter and warp reality to boost our own hope and survival. Square thinking of reality can be very depressing. Most people can't do it because it simply makes them look at themselves in ways that would make them disgusted at their very existence; their very nature. This would take away the good feelings that propel them senselessly forward. I found it interesting though, that as you said this, at the end you sort of negated - as I was saying here: namely, that we are selfish motivated addicts, but the best way to be happy is to be religious or use denial, etc. coping mechanisms. But those are the very mechanisms that make us blind to our own selfish nature in the first place! So it seems you have run across what I have; that going somewhat with our own nature and letting those mechanisms take their course is in fact, necessary for happiness. So what conclusions does that lead us to? |
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08-06-2013
I do think this is a low level IQ idiocy. Not without that for sure But smart people add to that by making mistakes and being stubborn not wanting to admit they've been wrong.
I'm sure you're on the right track there, but did you examine how unbiased this belief of yours is "Eating animals is necessary"? Is it based on a thorough research or was at a selection bias where you choose to pay attention/remember/put more weight on statements supporting what you want to believe? Because I mean, excercise is necessary yet you don't see so many people anxious to do it regularly. And those who eat meat justifying it to be a necessity often consume much more than is recommended thereby harming their health and even after doctors tell them to cut down or completely abstain from eating a certain type of meat they can't do that. Why? Same reason alcoholics can't quit drinking. Pleasure. Addiction. I don't want to go into link dumping on each other because it would be sliding to another topic (health benefits or dangers of vegetarian/vegan diet). I just think our treatment of animals and our choosing to view them as our posessions is founded on our desire for it to be so. And it's but one of the examples of how motivation shapes our thinking. It almost seemed like seeing unbiased truth was against the best intentions of my self. It is. Are you surprised? You thought 'the truth will set you free'? Or there would be some enlightenment that would make you happier? Well, I did. I thought enlightenment was all about finding peace and harmony and well... this turns out to be false. Seeing myself and the world squarely turned me more into an angry and disappointed Doug Stanhope. Hey, Doug is funny! And for people like me also kind of therapeautic)))
Yep. I found it interesting though, that as you said this, at the end you sort of negated - as I was saying here: namely, that we are selfish motivated addicts, but the best way to be happy is to be religious or use denial, etc. coping mechanisms. But those are the very mechanisms that make us blind to our own selfish nature in the first place! I didn't negate anything. They are 2 different aims in an either/or equation, not 'and'. You either choose to be happy or seek the truth. Who said you can win in this game? Who said there must be a near perfect way to live in this world? Because there doesn't seem to be one. To be happy one needs to shield himself from the suffering around and use a set of distortion and coping mechanisms to justify taking what he wants from the environment, one needs to believe without evidence in meaning, purpose, god, etc, to embrace the optimism bias. To seek the truth one needs to think and question, even his own motives and conclusions, asserting nothing, testing everything. Where does it leave us? Trapped. |
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09-06-2013 Thanks for fixing everything Irina. Well I didn't mean to state some unequivocal truth that eating animals is necessary. I've been vegetarian for years, although not recently. I eat very little meat however, so the position is not based on addiction. In my case the feeling that it is necessary is rooted in history, knowing our brains evolved dependent on a high caloric intake and certain amino acids vegetables sometimes do not have. Also personally, I know my energy can wane over time on a strictly vegetarian diet. I agree with the bias and the tendency to justify addiction. That's definitely a force that fuels most dietary choices. That's why I have a certain habit of going to the cafe everyday. However, I feel that food being produced, such as the soy substitutes, are more unhealthy (and experimentally verified) than natural meats. We are surrounded by so many synthetics (GMO's, soy & wheat derivatives, fillers, colorings and flavorings, preservatives) in our food landscape today - along with the propaganda to sell it to us. It can take a PhD in biochemistry just to know the truth about what we eat now! About truth.. yeah, I thought it would set me free. I thought it would lead me down the clearest and best path. Instead it separated me from the delusional herd, made me more cynical and depressed and less functional. Initially it made me inspired, but as time wore on I realized people don't function this way, and it was disappointing. It made me question all of life and what it meant to be here on this planet. I see your either/or at the end and it makes me sad. Is this really the way? We have an either/or with happiness or understanding? Are we trapped? I've felt this, and don't know the answer. I feel it is a brutal reality.. we aren't born into a paradise. God is used as a delusion to protect us, give us meaning, and as leverage to separate us from our actions when we gain wealth. Truth seems to separate us from the natural survival lies that keep us from killing ourselves in our meaningless existence. But truth can also be the most grounding exhilarating feeling I have ever felt. I feel like I am moving forward when I focus on that. Like I am doing something that is where humanity is going - not where it is now. It feels like a possible future for humanity. Maybe Dawkins and the scientific age is propelling us to a capability to confront greater truth and not be broken by it. Maybe dissolving the egos that keep us going now, where in the future we will not need this personality crutch. After all, it is the ego that creates all of the lies to protect itself and keeps all the petty problems on earth going everyday. What do you think? |
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10-06-2013
And I eat a little fish instead of supposedly more sentient cows and pigs. I'd like to completely switch to vegetarian diet but so far my attempts have failed. Never tried tofu btw, and trying to stay away from soy anyway. But that's another topic. I see your either/or at the end and it makes me sad. Is this really the way? We have an either/or with happiness or understanding? Are we trapped? I'll quote Dawkins here: “The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Really, the state of affairs in the wild is enough to convince me looking for some kind of happiness on this shithole planet is absurd. And that is the true enlightenment. The enlightenment with eyes wide open to the reality around us. |
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11-06-2013 'Really, the state of affairs in the wild is enough to convince me looking for some kind of happiness on this shithole planet is absurd. And that is the true enlightenment. The enlightenment with eyes wide open to the reality around us.'Amen... I agree, any kind of peace or happiness on this planet is absurd and not exactly a gesture of solidarity,... yet, absolutely vital for survival and (precisely) solidarity. Paradoxes of life. (I'll put up with them for just as long as it is strictly necessary to help my siblings... and not a second longer ) |
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11-06-2013
Yep. And life couldn't care less if it's paradoxical to us or not. P.S. smileys work if you click on the ones in the panel, one was broken, your favorite wink;) working now. [img] tags are for inserting pictures with full url. |
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11-06-2013 Now I see your meaning, Irina. Well said. I agree with Dawkins' logical deductions, and how you phrased it that way in the end..Sad; deeply sad, but maybe true. Maybe the invention of God was just the desperate search for meaning in the midst of pitiless indifference. |
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11-06-2013
Yeah, it is disheartening. Gods and all the spiritual delusions are of course invented to make this pointless struggle meaningful. But as with many other things, a belief in higher meaning and purpose while aleviating some suffering (of some existing people) is creating more of it (because it is used as a justuification for creating new life). It's a trap we can't get out of without hurting ourselves. |
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