Existential depression and the meaning of life

Another big question is, "What is the point of bettering ourselves if we are all eventual worm food?"

Exactly. Does it matter what you do in your sleep if you forget it in the morning and will never be able to recollect it? I mean, in one of those dreams I don't remember I could have been experiencing the greatest happiness or sorrow or understanding Einstein's theory of relativity, but the dream is over and everything ive learnt, understood or felt in it is lost. People who've lived here hundreds of years ago - ordinary people - whats left of them? Nothing. By this time, theres most likely noone alive to even remember them. Its like they never existed at all. Does it matter if the sufferring they've experienced made them better? For whom?

Of course I agree sufferring does sometimes make people wiser, more empathetic etc. I just think its a cruel way to train people.

Sure. I can imagine a world were people can learn through listening to bird songs, or don't need to learn at all because theyre good enough already.

In this f*cked up place - not really.

With your fish analogy you're describing how things are in our world. Surely, you don't want to say that because this is how we are wired on the planet Earth, this is the only way living organisms could possibly be built.

When I'm saying I could imagine a world where everything is good enough already Im also implying that sentient creatures there are equipped with a capability to experience good sensations without having to know any negative ones. Hard for us to imagine, I know. But then, its hard for us to grasp the meaning of infinity, but that doesn't mean that therefore it can not exist.

Again, I understand how hardships sometimes build peoples spirits. Same way excercise builds muscles. But the only reason why we need muscles is to adjust to the world with gravity. Muscles have no merit in themselves. Same way a strong character is only valuable in a world where there are challenges and struggles to be faced with.

You acknowledge that just being giving everything good at the onset in this world makes you a Paris Hilton

No. And money is not 'everything'. Not everyone from the rich family ends up being Paris Hilton. And you can find plenty of 'Paris Hiltons' in the poor neighbourhoods. At least some philosophers and artists were from the rich families, no? You need at least the luxury of free time for introspection and growth, for any creative activities. If you have to work 8 hours and come back exhausted you are too tired to be pondering existential questions, your mind is occupied with how to feed your family.

Would it have been exciting? Would the characters have learned about themselves or grown as individuals? Would they have developed any character?

We only find it exciting because we are living in this world where everyone has to fight to stay alive and escape dangerous situations. Theres no need to be finding the stories of how someone escaped the grusome fate exciting per se. We do because were all in danger here, so it appeals to our psyche. That however doesn't mean that the skills of bypassing traps are valuable in themselves. Muscles are good if one has to run or lift heavy weights, wings are great if one has to fly, eyes - if theres a need to see. Building character if ... I don't know... you tell me why its worthwhile. Why is 'growing as an individual' a good thing?

unlike our dimension in all aspects to the point of defying logic as we know it.

yes, it would

The moment you brought a positive into it, it would become like our existence

it wouldn't since all the aspects of it would be different from our dimension

the only absence of negatives would be in neutrality. That would be oblivion and lack of any form of consciousness.

Well, that wouldn't seem too awful to me. Ever heard of Nirvana? Are you sure consciousness is the best of all states? Or at least the consciousness as we know it. Have you had the chance to compare?

I've seen Erin Brockovich movie. (Loved it btw) But life is also full of much less inspiring examples where peoples struggles end with nothing as glorious. They fight, and suffer, and suffer some more just to rot in the ground. Sufferring isn't all so romantic. While some are possibly building character and 'growing', others just perish under the weight of their ordeals. That's why I'm saying that sufferring is a cruel way to achieve an aim of 'bettering' people, especially since the point of bettering them is unclear.

I don't think you're getting my point. I'm using metaphors to point to a larger truth.

I've already acknowlege that your methaphors are valid if we discuss strictly how things are in this world. But ever since you've asked if I could imagine an alternative we've been discussing a fictional world where rules would have been different. And there, as I have already mentioned, the rules of how everything is built here wouldn't apply.

Improvement and the ability to appreciate good is what I was trying to illustrate.

You don't need to keep illustrating what I have agreed with in the firts place by saying 'With your fish analogy you're describing how things are in our world.' I know were able to appreciate good things in comparison to bad ones here. And also, when you asked if I could imagine an alternative to learning thru sufferring I said that in this f*ed up world - not really. So the point of the role that sufferring plays here today was accepted from the beginning of the discussion.

I see no point arguing that the rain is needed to moisten the ground - that's a fact we can observe. But saying that this is the only way life could ever exist is to apply our limited understanding of whats possible to the whole Universe, whatever that is.

When Im asking why is 'growing as an individual' a good thing I mean - apart from this world, intrinsically?

I can see benefits of growth in this world, same way I see benefits of regular excercise. (btw, i better get to it, or ill loose the shape that i still have )

but my point is that to originate there would make it impossible, without your conceptual miracle of a another dimension where on it we would equipped to enjoy it without a point of reference.

And that's all Im talking about. I can see some point in people growing as individuals in this life. It matters for them, it matters for people surrounding them. One has to do something in this life - might as well be growth and exploring own potential, especially since we seem to be wired to enjoy life the fullest when we 'self-actualize' - discover and develop our skills and talents and live true to ourselves.

I'm just saying when one looks at this crazy race from far, one has to wonder whats the point of it all. Not whats the point for the individual X to work at expanding his horizons and growing - hes free to define the meaning himself - but the point of there being such a world with bunch of weak and vulnerable living beings forced to keep finding ways to stay alive and become better adjusted to the place they're gonna leave in a few decades anyway?

Especially considering how some are never improved, they're just tortured and killed. Collateral damage?

Its like imagining a box with mice. You define the world for them, throw them in there and train them to jump and crawl through the obsticles on their way to food. They can keep betterring themselves and take pride in how well adjusted they become to the place. Some of them may become super adjusted and surpass their potential. And at that point you may say that its great: they were imperfect and became less so. But the greater point of that? For whom besides possibly the mice themselves that journey from imperfection to perfection would matter? Theres no way of saying going from imperfection to perfection is intrinsically good for everyone and everything, in any possible world. Only if you're talking about our particular world and how our human psyche today is wired.

Yeah, thanks for contributing to my blog, and I I absolutely love meaningful discussions))

So basically you're acknowledging that in this universe, good without bad is impossible, or at least the appreciation of good without bad.

Yes, Im leaning towards this conclusion. Not that I find it particularly pleasing though.))

Without logic to explain how this would be possible, even in another dimension, you would require what to us would be considered miraculous by our standards. Now this is where it all dead ends, because I can no longer argue logic, because in your miracle, logic isn't necessary.

I find intrinsic impossibilities, where intrinsic applies to logic and reason, by definition, not possible in any universe.

I don't. We define whats possible and not possible to the extend were currently able to understand it. Centuries ago our understanding was more limited than today, but things that were aware of today were still there even when we werent able to grasp them. So I wouldn't be so sure we're so evolved now that we can apply our logic outside our tiny planet. With your fish analogy, it would be like fish judging the world by what it sees in the ocean.

I'm not saying we should therefore believe that something beyond what we have the evidence for exists or is possible. But see nothing wrong with assumming that something might be possible seeing how there still are lots of things beyond our current understanding, however uncomfortable it may feel. I personally do not believe the world I mentioned actually exists. You asked if I was able to imagine it - and I am. Nothing follows from this leap of imagination.

And surely theres no point trying to apply logic to something that was defined as surpassing it.

All I was talking about was that I could imagine a better world (subjectively better?). I do not think that pointing to the fact that sufferring is preprogrammed into this world's design suffices to conclude that it therefore is wise or admirable, or worth anything. To me it just points to how poorly this world is structured. Not being able to enjoy anything unless one suffers - sucks. Especially if you take into account that the amount of good and bad in persons life isnt always proportionte.

...as I said before, negatives are relative. Nelson Mandela suffered but a greater good came out of it.

so negatives are relative but there is an absolute 'greater good'?;)

That statement seems to validate many possibilities, including ones you have never thought of, or ones you may disagree with, thus negating your current stance, if you have one, or do consider yourself also agnostic?

Thats right. Lots of things I disagree with could still be possible. I mean, I wish they weren't but Yep. Agnosticism it is.

The question is a straw man. I believe the two aren't separate, they are intertwined, like two different sides of the same piece of paper.

No, it was just in the way you phrased the sentence stressing on the relativity of the negatives but right there using the greater good that prompted me to note it. If negatives are relative, positives must be as well. I get the intertwined position, although, I wouldn't use the sides of the paper or coin analogy, because it kinda suggests one side is exactly the same in size as the other. I would speculate the amount of the two in the world is not exactly 50/50, at least not on the individual level. But thats a whole new topic..)))

Was a pleasure to have a discussion with you, thanks!)))