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29-08-2015 Hmm, just some clarifications…I do believe animals of all types suffer, and guess what, plants too! Life is the problem. Not that it matters all so much what we think, and I am not a wishful person, but seriously the difference between humans and animals is that humans are self-aware enough to understand procreation and its consequences, whereas more than likely almost all other animals do not. Three may be AN animals, maybe, but in general the self-awareness to *choose* to forego natural mating because it leads to procreation is almost completely limited to homo sapiens. I do not believe that copulating birds know the connection with the eggs they build nests for some weeks later. And remember, some people confuse the desire for sex with the desire to procreate. I really don't think there is much overlap there. Copulation often leads to procreation, but that is not what is on most people's or animals' minds when they meet a base desire for sex. The fact that at least half of all pregnancies are unwanted is good evidence for that. If sex was extremely painful, boring, and tiring, I seriously believe there would be many fewer humans on the planet at this point in time. So to me, when a species can actually choose, whether they do or not, to procreate mindfully, then they have the responsibility not to, if they have a developed sense of compassion and logic. Choosing that for dogs, let's say, or wolves rather, since dogs are a creation of humans and more their responsibility, is a bit of a step in my book. If someone wants to eliminate all life, I'll go with that, but picking and choosing beyond their own species, and even for others in that species in a forced way, truly requires more thought. Hitler-like scenarios could emerge rather quickly, otherwise. I could make a long list of things that were never going to happen, but did, but I will leave that to your imagination or a Google search. My point would be to say that if women, for example, had said they would never get to own property, or vote, or work outside the home, or control their own reproduction, or not be the property of a man, or not show any skin of their choosing, we wouldn't have women world leaders, bikinis, women lawyers and engineers and doctors, birth control, and a host of other things that women have either initiated or fought for. With a global source of information and communication that has been developed over the past 50 years people can communicate, share information and thoughts, form groups, and even rebel and overthrow governments much easier than ever before. An idea like AN in Shope's time was no doubt extremely difficult to spread, almost impossible. Birth control was more difficult, surgery more so, and women had much less say in how many children they created. Today, I don't seriously think anyone can say that is still as true, in all honesty. This blog is proof enough. Life may fail on this planet, which for me would be a success, either by its own hand as a choice, or by the lucky consequences of foolish and selfish behavior, and I think to automatically assume that we can have no effect on the outcome or to say it absolutely cannot be nudged that way or executed in the coming future is to not have a clear vision of the inflection point we just so happen to be living through in the span of human history. The dice have fundamentally been cast for us, we can't benefit from AN, only those that come after us. So yes, without at least personal action, and perhaps more, all of this is basically verbal vomit. But just like in my historic neighborhood where people planted oak trees that they know they would never see mature nor benefit from that now 100 years later make my life just that much more bearable, perhaps we can do the same! |
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29-08-2015
With a global source of information and communication that has been developed over the past 50 years people can communicate, share information and thoughts, form groups, and even rebel and overthrow governments much easier than ever before. An idea like AN in Shope's time was no doubt extremely difficult to spread, almost impossible. Birth control was more difficult, surgery more so, and women had much less say in how many children they created. Today, I don't seriously think anyone can say that is still as true, in all honesty. This blog is proof enough. This is true, Kirk, we do live in an information era. I don't know if this blog is proof of much, it rather reflects how inpopular philosophy as such and much so pessimistic one is. Just check any make up tutorial or a cooking blog to compare how much interest those generate. It's not enough to make accessinble some piece of information if people aren't interested in it. For example, there's everything on how electricity works right now on the internet but I'm not going to educate myself about it because I don't care. Just like other people couldn't give a damn about what some people 'yap-yap' about life and death. Oh and don't forget religious nuts of all kinds are using the same technology, they too have gained more exposure. But just like in my historic neighborhood where people planted oak trees that they know they would never see mature nor benefit from that now 100 years later make my life just that much more bearable, perhaps we can do the same! :) That's a beautiful illustration. Sadly, same rational was used to be waging wars. Once again, in my country people keep fighting 'so that their children could live'. The same thing our grandparents did. And then maybe those children who survive today will engage in... |
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29-08-2015 Katerina, all I meant was that animals, being devoid of developed thought are incapable of fretting to the extent that people are. They're not going to worry themselves stupid about whether they get their tax return in on time or if their wife is secretly two timing on them behind their backs or whether their Tourette's syndrome will prevent them from getting their dream job of 'lullaby-singer-to-babies-at-the-local-nursery'. I may have underestimated the extent to which they can psychologically suffer, but I still maintain that we suffer more in this area. Do understand that I am ONLY referring to mental realms here. Physically speaking, it is just the reverse.At the end of the day, quibbling over 'who or what suffers more' is not something I want to waste a lot of time over. Like I said (and ridiculously had mocked by 'TheMeme') suffering is suffering and I wish it didn't exist. Now for the new Гјber-genius who has decided to join the party... quote:
Since such a magic button does exit (sorry to bother you with reality) HONK! Sorry, that was my novelty gameshow buzzer that I purchased from Ebay going off there. It's programmed to do so whenever someone gives an incorrect (and amusingly bullshit) answer. Must be pretty embarrassing see as you've only just arrived and with this aura of superciliousness to boot! Oh, you protest? Well, do enlighten us as to where this button of yours resides which would ENSURE INSTANT, PAINLESS ERADICATION OF ***ALL*** LIFE as outlined in my previous post. I really hope it isn't anything to do with nuclear weapons or you'll get a spanked bottom for seeing I already discounted that as a viable option. quote:
Are we doomed to endless moral philosophizing and armchair-whining? You are clearly whining about our whining, so what does that make the answer? Come on, I know you know this. Think hard! quote:
So is all of this just another human and cosmic-salvation-fantasy then? In case it escaped you (quite possible, seeing as most of it has thus far), you are typing posts on a blog devoted to, among other things, antinatalism. Both Irina and I have firmly stated that neither of us believe it is something which is likely to come to pass, so as far as I'm concerned, YES, it is a fantasy. Kirk disagrees with me/us, but we were having a perfectly civil discussion about it until you popped up with your haughty, immediate, and unnecessary condescension. quote:
Is it noble or idiotic to attach to such a salvation-fantasy? Yes I think its idiotic… That's nice, I'm happy for you. Now toddle off and buy yourself some candy. Remember to look both ways when you get to that thing where the cars go back and forth. It's called a road and can be vewwy, vewwy dangerous. quote:
Won't happen. sorry. reality is a bitch..i know. You and reality have so much in common. Oh, and just because I know you're slow on the uptake and have to have things repeated constantly before they sink in... I KNOW it won't happen. I already said so. Often. Back to the polite people... Kirk, I think I covered the first part of your reply in my first paragraph here to Katerina. Human beings are self-conscious and can think critically. We have highly developed memories and problem solving capabilities which leave all the rest of the animals in the dust. It shouldn't even need to be discussed. quote:
Choosing that for dogs, let's say, or wolves rather, since dogs are a creation of humans and more their responsibility, is a bit of a step in my book. If someone wants to eliminate all life, I'll go with that, but picking and choosing beyond their own species, and even for others in that species in a forced way, truly requires more thought. Hitler-like scenarios could emerge rather quickly, otherwise. As I tried to make clear (before being mocked for 'fantasising'), I could only sanction making such a choice if it could 100% be proved that all life would be snuffed out of existence in the blink of an eye, otherwise the effect for those poor creatures left behind would be untold suffering - the prevention of which, after all, is the motivating factor behind our philosophy. I won't bother saying anymore about the rest of your post as I've rabbited on long enough. Besides, Irina has done the work for me. |
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29-08-2015 Just one major thought more on this round, that was sparked by Irina's reference to electricity and how it works, and not really wanting to know. I think that can be the key to AN success!That is, I know I am not normal because I have a very good inkling about how electricity works, studied it for years, and taught it as well, both practically and theoretically. Consequently, I was able to wire my 100 year old house securely and correctly and not have to pay some electricians way-too-much money to do it. Ah, but my point is that people, today especially, use and do a lot of things that they don't understand, like electricity, or cell phones, or automobiles, etc. etc. Shouldn't this also apply to AN? That is, people don't think much, don't want to, and only want the short-term benefit something provides, like flipping a light switch or using Google. If there was a, or multiple, benefits to AN action, not necessarily thought, such as a tax break, or skipping the line at movies, or better or cheaper housing, or afternoons off at work, or free medical care, etc. then people might become sterilized or whatever to limit their procreative activity for the immediate benefit provided. Additionally, social pressure looms large for most people. If everyone starts wearing polka dots, no young person is going to be caught *not* wearing them. If dressing in black and being goth is cool, same thing, regardless of the deeper meaning. As a quick example, I used to compete in triathlons, and managed to do a full length one that took all day. I felt entitled to wear an Ironman triathlon watch because I did the distance! Soon afterwards, though, I saw the fattest, laziest people wearing them! That struck me as wildly disingenuous and absurd, but I realized that is how people are. I think, in essence, people can be "tricked" into AN, too, given the right conditions (see past reference to Japan's current reproductive situation with men sitting in their mom's basement playing video games instead of prowling for a hook-up). And maybe with authentic robots, sex can become safe and completely divorced from procreation. And yes, Mr. Brick, an Irina model, say age 21, is sure to be one of the first produced, with changeable length hair and color, and an option for English with Russian accent, or straight up Russian! |
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That is, people don't think much, don't want to, and only want the short-term benefit something provides, like flipping a light switch or using Google. Because there's much more knowledge out there than any one person can possibly be interested in, except on a shallow level. Just like not everyone is driven to become a sportsman or sportswoman, developing all the potentialities of their physical body, not everyone wants to train their brain muscles, indeed, most people live on the minimally required general knowledge and very modest amount of exercise (in the developed world). If there was a, or multiple, benefits to AN action, not necessarily thought, such as a tax break, or skipping the line at movies, or better or cheaper housing, or afternoons off at work, or free medical care, etc. then people might become sterilized or whatever to limit their procreative activity for the immediate benefit provided. Right, and who is gonna be working, paying the taxes and providing medical services for the childless in 20 years after the policy is implemented? At some point there will be too much old people and not enough tax-paying youngsters. I think you're kidding yourself that antinatalism can be advertised as adding something to the person's life except a sheer realzation that they've not harmed another human being the way they themselves have been harmed. All other arguments - such as you've mentioned, the self-interest type, are rather child-free arguments and I think they're great and more effective for the wider audience but they'll only work as far as population reduction. Once the population drops to the somewhat dangerous level you'll see people breeding like rabbits again, like it has always hapenned after wars and genocides. And yes, Mr. Brick, an Irina model, say age 21, is sure to be one of the first produced, with changeable length hair and color, and an option for English with Russian accent, or straight up Russian! So I'm too old for your preference, am I Kirk? No coupons on my one-day-to-be-patented 'Irina sex doll' for you then!)))) |
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29-08-2015 @Dick Sorry if I came across as rude, that was not my intention. Maybe it's a "quibble" now but I think if efilism ever did become any sort of possibility it would become an important question. I'll drop the subject.@Irina I see your cute cat and frog video and raise you a cute cat licking deer video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7kRDPmwzVI --- > Edited 29-08-2015 22:15:26 |
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30-08-2015
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Right, and who is gonna be working, paying the taxes and providing medical services for the childless in 20 years after the policy is implemented? At some point there will be too much old people and not enough tax-paying youngsters. I think you're kidding yourself that antinatalism can be advertised as adding something to the person's life except a sheer realzation that they've not harmed another human being the way they themselves have been harmed. Just like managing growth is a continual problem that people seem to take as a day-to-day expense, like building new roads and maintaining old ones, new housing, destruction of the environment, water issues, noise and pollution, all of these seem to be something people are willing to live with for one reason or another in the name of every increasing population, the more the merrier is the watchword. Bringing the population down over time will certainly create problems and opportunities. Land would probably become cheaper, that villa on the coast is now $5! You might be able to drink the water from that creek that now runs instead of being just a drainage ditch, etc. You might see the stars at night or hear frogs instead of AC units running. I think the Voluntary Human Extinction movement might have more to say on the implementation aspect. A study of places like Detroit that have seen huge population decreases and of cultures from the past that shrank and disappeared for one reason or another would probably be helpful, too. There are always bubbles of too many old people or too many young people, and smoothing of that could be deliberate, or just managed as it come as it is now. People adapt, if there are tons of young people, more people become teachers because the pay is better and there are openings. More old people? More young people go into adult day care and nursing, etc. Right now, for instance, the US government *rewards* people for having children with a tax *break*! There is free education, fundamentally, for almost every child in the US of adequate quality. But interestingly enough, even when short-sighted governments see the writing on the wall, say in Japan or central Europe, and start putting in behavior management incentives for reproduction to get their tax base up, people see that raising a child, even from a very selfish perspective, is too expensive and will cut into their lifestyle, and they just don't do it. The 21 year old model is for Brick, I would probably prefer 30s or 40s, especially if the brain development is coincident with the modeled age! This dialog has been good for me, at least, because it helps me see how others think, and how to present various ideas and their implementation. What seems simple and obvious to me, whether patterns of thinking or religious beliefs, etc. isn't usually to others, so sometimes it is hard to understand where they are coming from, "intellectually" speaking. I guess I am an optimist at heart, knowing people's behavior is generally predictable if one just knows how to manipulate them and what motivates them, and that their simplemindedness can be used against them. What I wouldn't want to contend with is a very large group of ANs, knowing that they will be smart, rational, and more than likely see through my attempts to manage their behaviour through religion or patriotism! And here is some intellectual porn for you ANers! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_After_People |
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30-08-2015 Oh men, Dick, if I would have known that you will get that pissed by my (childish) mockery of your fantasising, I would have resisted that temptation. It seems to be, that I really have a talent to unintentionally get people pissed. Maybe I should start socializing again. Though I recently read in the newspaper that, according to a survey, tourists perceive the people in my country (Austria) as grumpy, unfriendly and direct. So these things may not improve. Nonetheless such ultimate 'End of Suffering' phantasies are quite common in pessimistic circles. Yes, occasionally I am also clinging to such 'visions'. Still it’s idiotic to do so. (And I am not against idiocy as long as it does no harm). So what? Yet the realist and rationalist in me, doesn’t like it to adhere to that, demanding the impossible and so on..So maybe that’s the reason I couldn’t resist mocking your cherished magic button.As I see, you easily get upset and are in need for an AN Safe-space. Fine, I can accept that. Nice rant tough --- > Edited 30-08-2015 03:36:37 |
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30-08-2015 @Kirk & Irina If antinatalism really got off the ground I imagine a good assisted suicide system would be implemented. It doesn't really make sense that people would get AN but not the right to die as they have a similar fundamental philosophy. Plenty of old folks would chose that option, I'd imagine. More and more people already want this right, especially among the elderly. I can see the Right to Die road leading to logical AN, under the right circumstances. It's not probable, I'll concede, but there's a small chance.@Kirk I've seen that Life After People before, really fascinating. @Irina one more comment about animal suffering. I agree with you that if they do suffer more than humans that, on the flip side, they probably feel more pleasure as well. The problem is that there are far more sources of danger than sources of pleasure in nature. And the heightened pleasure still won't cancel out the pain, of course. @theMeme maybe it is hopeless but we'll never know for sure unless we try. What else is there to do? I mean besides drugs, sex, and rock and roll lol. I can do all of those plus work on AN @everyone Have any of you seen a movie called "The Suicide Theory"? It's an indie film but surprisingly well produced. It's very grim. I can't be arsed typing out a summary so here's the trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFPPZJdi0Zc |
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The problem is that there are far more sources of danger than sources of pleasure in nature. And the heightened pleasure still won't cancel out the pain, of course. Sure, I'm not trying to minimize their lot, just sort of hoping they also get some bonus that we don't. maybe it is hopeless but we'll never know for sure unless we try. What else is there to do? I mean besides drugs, sex, and rock and roll lol. I can do all of those plus work on AN :P That's how I see it too. Might as well try advancing your favorite hopeless cause on your spare time. Have any of you seen a movie called "The Suicide Theory"? It's an indie film but surprisingly well produced. It's very grim. Cool, added to my watchlist, thanx! |
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30-08-2015 You know, I was thinking about the "probability" that ANers might "win", and when you think about it, how many species since, say, the advent of sea creatures until now, have *not* gone extinct? Not necessarily through AN, but just extinct? Maybe a lot? Maybe a whole lot?Maybe the odds of homo sapiens going extinct, by hook or crook, is 100%? Maybe the only question is whether it is with maximum suffering over time, or maximum cataclysmic suffering, or managed minimal suffering at our own hands??? Yeah, what about that? Huh? OK, a Texas joke for everyone…A Texas rancher was talking with a rancher from Oklahoma. The Okie says, "I have a ranch so damn big that it has two residences, one for my family and one for my ranch hands." The Texas rancher looks him straight in the eye and replies, "Well, I have my own personal lake, boat, and boat house." The Okie shuffles a bit and snarls, "Yep, yep, but with my ranch, takes all day to drive around it in my pick'em up truck." And the Texan, in a consoling manner, spits and states, "You bet, when I was startin' out I used to have a truck near that bad, too." |
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30-08-2015 @Katerina Yes, a lot of elderly people have had enough pain, boredom, and loss of function that they want out, just visit any adult day care. I won't recount personal stories here in deference to those close to me, but I guarantee there are many people that stop eating, stop medication, unplug devices, OD on meds, shoot themselves in the head with varying results, etc. because there is no non-violent way to die with dignity in the USA. Even helping someone die is a crime. It's total BS, and the suffering is horrible.I do agree, acceptance of the control over one's consciousness is another step toward AN, IMO, just like atheism often frees people up to realize that they *aren't* in god's plan, there *isn't* a reason for everything and their or other's suffering is pointless and avoidable, etc. I do think over time this will eventually be like gay marriage, the stone will roll slowly until one day it can't be stopped and becomes *self-evident*, as Shope would put it. The concept of the rights of the un-conceived to remain that way would be just a stop further down the road. You know, once I had to make a midnight run to an emergency room for a relative and during the very long wait there was so much shuffling and shambling about, and complaining and groaning, that it was nearly unbearable to witness, and that was just the nursing support staff! |
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30-08-2015 Katerina, you weren't rude in the slightest! What you said was absolutely right and I hadn't given due consideration to the torment animals probably go through. To use your American expression: 'my bad'. Thanks for the 'The Suicide Theory' link (and to Kirk for the 'Life After People' one, although I think I may have seen that.) Looks pretty interesting and will give me something new to download. ..... Umm, did I say download? I meant of course, 'wait until it comes on TV'. TheMeme, quote:
As I see, you easily get upset and are in need for an AN Safe-space. Lol! Not at all, I just don't appreciate sarcastic and holier-than-thou disdain from people who just pop up out of the blue and with whom I've never before interacted. Of course you're entitled to your opinion and to tell me I'm full of shit. I'm the first to admit that I usually am! I only reacted in accordance to the way I perceived you were treating me. Maybe I do need to grow a thicker skin, or maybe you should say hello first before ripping off my balls! If I misunderstood your intention then I'm sorry for my response. Unfortunately, one of the many problems people have with one another in this world is that of communication. I have no desire to fight with anyone or get into pointless (and usually, endless) slagging matches, and to reiterate for the umpteenth time I personally do not see antinatalism coming to pass. Lastly, my 'fantasy' isn't a fantasy at all. It was something I brought up spontaneously in my long conversation with Kirk and it seemed an appropriate point to make in the proceedings. Please don't think for a second that I am sitting here in a corner obsessing over it, muttering to myself, drawing over walls and feverishly trying to work out how to put it into action! I have better things to do with my time, such as scratching my ass while staring at my reflection with awe and admiration. Kirk, quote:
The 21 year old model is for Brick, I would probably prefer 30s or 40s, especially if the brain development is coincident with the modeled age! Don't try and worm your way out of it now. You've upset poor Irina and ruined her make up from all the crying. Don't worry Reenyweeny, I'll comfort you and keep you safe from that big, mean and nasty old Kirk. See? I told you he was no good. Ha ha ha. quote:
You know, I was thinking about the "probability" that ANers might "win", and when you think about it, how many species since, say, the advent of sea creatures until now, have *not* gone extinct? Not necessarily through AN, but just extinct? Maybe a lot? Maybe a whole lot? Definitely NOT through AN, but it's estimated that 99.9% of all species that have existed have gone extinct. Furthermore, if you'd read the ABM post (which I keep harping on about and you keep ignoring. lol) you'd see he posts this link: http://www.worldwildlife.org/press-releases/half-of-global-wildlife-lost-says-new-wwf-report ... which shows that global populations of wildlife have dropped over 50% in the last 40 years alone and is attributed to human meddling all across the globe. If not merely manufactured statistics then this is really quite mind blowing to think about. Howeveeeeer - and sorry for continuing to beat the same drum - I must ask you all that IF we truly want an end to suffering, then is this news a terrible thing or a marvelous one? quote:
Maybe the odds of homo sapiens going extinct, by hook or crook, is 100%? Unless we manage to make a new home on that big gaseous place known as Uranus (what? You don't know I'm immature by now? TheMeme knows. He saw through me straight away! lol), then our end is a foregone conclusion, or as Shakespeare once put it: "doth fucked we be." quote:
You know, once I had to make a midnight run to an emergency room for a relative and during the very long wait there was so much shuffling and shambling about, and complaining and groaning, that it was nearly unbearable to witness, and that was just the nursing support staff! Funny! In this country I'm afraid the laughs aren't so plentiful: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2950728/All-care-homes-CCTV-says-woman-used-120-covert-camera-film-nurse-abusing-poking-taunting-92-year-old-mother-law.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3196931/Care-worker-jailed-10-years-filming-sexually-abusing-patients-old-101-sending-footage-boyfriend.html Time for me to shower and face this lovely, caring world once more. Y'all have a good day now, y'hear? P.S. Rina, I want my newsletter, dammit! I keep ticking (that's 'checking' in American) the box and yet no Uriupinian Union news is ever forthcoming. |
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30-08-2015
P.S. Lol. I don't have a newsletter yet. I just like people ticking useless checkboxes))) I might have one some day though)) |
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31-08-2015 @Kirk"Maybe the odds of homo sapiens going extinct, by hook or crook, is 100%? smiley smiley smiley Maybe the only question is whether it is with maximum suffering over time, or maximum cataclysmic suffering, or managed minimal suffering at our own hands??? Yeah, what about that? Huh?" I think we'll go extinct sometime relatively soon, say the next 500 years. Global warming will be a huge bitch for humans in the future. I just hope people wake up and realize that nature is a problem and that we need to do something about it before we go out. Nature is where most of the suffering happens, there are 7 billion humans, and around of 100 billion factory farmed and lab animals combined. But all this pales in comparison to the natural world, where there are approx. 200-400 billion birds alone. Humans are a drop in the filthy ocean. So yeah, if humans die out before we fix that issue it will cause cataclysmic suffering. And, of course, I'd like to see humans go out with minimal suffering as well but I fear just the opposite is going to happen. "I do agree, acceptance of the control over one's consciousness is another step toward AN, IMO, just like atheism often frees people up to realize that they *aren't* in god's plan, there *isn't* a reason for everything and their or other's suffering is pointless and avoidable, etc." "I do think over time this will eventually be like gay marriage, the stone will roll slowly until one day it can't be stopped and becomes *self-evident*," A lot of atheists I see are pretty much pantheists. The still have some notion of "gaia," so I don't know how much progress we've really had. Most vegans are much the same way, they worship the biggest abuser of animals. I really can't wrap my brain around it. How do you get those notions out of peoples heads? Stories are the only way, I think, TV, books, music, film, etc... But they have to be stories that have the old familiar tropes that people already like, especially young people. The problem is making those stories marketable and meaningful. People want pure entertainment, not a message. And, most importantly, they want stories that glorify life. I'm struggling with that in my own writing, making things marketable and enjoyable, but not compromising my message at the same time. And it doesn't help that I'm an uber perfectionist lol. @Dick Those dailymail articles you linked are horrifying. *shudders* |
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31-08-2015 @Dick I got part of your comment mixed up with Kirk's previous comment. So my first response partially addresses where you say "... which shows that global populations of wildlife have dropped over 50% in the last 40 years alone and is attributed to human meddling all across the globe. If not merely manufactured statistics then this is really quite mind blowing to think about. Howeveeeeer - and sorry for continuing to beat the same drum - I must ask you all that IF we truly want an end to suffering, then is this news a terrible thing or a marvelous one?"My bad, as we Americans say |
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